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ROMNEY'S CANDIDACY: BEYOND FACE VALUE (represents the long-lost American ideal)
NY POST ^ | May 18, 2007 | VOX POPULI

Posted on 05/18/2007 4:36:41 AM PDT by Liz

THE ISSUE: Whether Mitt Romney can become the first Mormon president. (Rich Lowry "Mauling Mitt For Mormonism," PostOpinion, May 15)

**** As a conservative, Romney is among the candidates for president I like most. The appearance of a squeaky-clean "Ozzie and Harriet" family life is no small part of his appeal. We need a leader who lives the way we should all aspire to.....the liberal media who idolize the likes of Bill Clinton do not feel the same way. Manhattan

**** Romney should be given a fair shake.....his policies and leadership qualities should be scrutinized, not his religious affiliation. That kind of bigotry should have gone by the wayside with the 1960 election of John F. Kennedy, a Roman Catholic....beyond the good looks and stylish presentation of Romney, is a highly intelligent, very driven and skillful politician. He's a caring man with a nice family. Why should he be criticized for having that? It used to be the American ideal; maybe it's time to have it again. Manhattan

(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Extended News; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: mittromney; romney; romney2008; romneyideal; romneymormon; stoprudy2008
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To: lady lawyer
Christians, including Mormons, believe in the divinity of Christ, the Virgin Birth, his resurrection, and salvation through his atonement. Those are supernatural, not “rational,” matters that defy understanding through any means other than faith.

OK. Let's say we have a person who has been declared clinically dead. The 50 best docs in the world said so. Tests of every kind were run. He was buried. He came alive three days later.

So it's "irrational" if we all believe that person who's walking around is "alive?"

If all 50 docs say, "Pay no attention to that body wandering around here." We're just to mindlessly mumble what the Wizards of Medical Oz tell us and think, "I'm an irrational believer if I concede He's alive?"

Really?

61 posted on 05/18/2007 9:27:45 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Liz
Mitt Romney opposed the Contract With America

"If you want to get something done in Washington you don't end up picking teams, with Republicans on one side, and Democrats on the other... I don't like winners and losers in Washington. I'd rather say 'Let's get together and work together.'" - Mitt Romney

62 posted on 05/18/2007 9:28:45 AM PDT by EternalVigilance (Since yesterday morning the manpower for another army division has crossed the southern border)
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To: Colofornian

[The bottom line is that Mitt thinks he’ll become a god someday. So you want a divine-to-be in office?

If you thought you were to be a god upon death, what kind of power surge adrenalin does that pour through your political decisions?]

You are da’ bomb Colofornian. I’m pretty good at skewering the myth, but you are on another ‘planet’ when it comes to debunking - clear, concise, factual. Let me know what your background is sometime privately. You don’t know the stuff you do unless you’ve been through the Mormon wringer like some of us have.


63 posted on 05/18/2007 9:31:37 AM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: Colofornian
I do not see the reason for the unabashed hatred of Mormons and their theology on this forum. Comparisons to David Koresh are illogical. David Koresh said that he was Christ.

Mormons say they are followers of Christ. They say that Christ has a prophet on the earth to help them find the truth. Mormons don’t blindly follow a prophet. They are admonished to pray to God to find out if any statement that affects them from their prophet is true or not. No one forces them to be Mormon, they may leave the faith at any time without prejudice. All they need to do is write a letter to their pastor saying they want to be taken off the rolls of The Church.

Theological relativism? Isn’t that exactly the standard that we came here from Europe to espouse. Aren’t we all all supposed to believe that our religion is the right one but that your religion has as much right and legitimacy as mine?

Some raw nerves are exposed here, I don’t mean to rub anybody the wrong way it is just that my experience with many different people of many different faiths shows there are a lot of very good people in this country and they are not all of the same faith. The Mormons seem to be as good as any of them and their religious standards are to be admired. I don't think I ever met a practicing Mormon that I didn't like, perhaps even admire.

As far as espousing abortion as a sacrament, I would trust an anti-abortion atheist before I would support a Christian abortionist regardless of how often the Christian took the sacrament.

64 posted on 05/18/2007 9:33:04 AM PDT by JAKraig (Joseph Kraig)
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To: Colofornian

You believe in the resurrection because you accept the words of the witnesses who saw him. I do too, in part. But you didn’t see it yourself, and neither did I.

I accept the Book of Mormon because — among other things — I accept the words of the 11 witnesses, in addition to Joseph Smith, who saw the plates from which they were translated.

If simply believing the words of witnesses makes a belief “rational,” why is one any more “rational” than the other?


65 posted on 05/18/2007 9:35:21 AM PDT by lady lawyer
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To: JAKraig

“Don’t all Christians believe they will someday be god’s?”

That is exactly the point. Mormon’s do, every other Christian and Jew does not (except schismatics). The potential of becomming a God with all the ego problems involved in the here and now lead to aberrations in judgment. Think how you’d act if you thought you were one step away from Godhood versus someone who recognized there are real limitations to humans. After you’ve pondered that for a while, you will understand why this is a big deal not to be swept under the rug.


66 posted on 05/18/2007 9:37:18 AM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: lady lawyer
11 Witnesses? Really?
67 posted on 05/18/2007 9:37:57 AM PDT by JAKraig (Joseph Kraig)
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To: JAKraig

Yup.


68 posted on 05/18/2007 9:38:36 AM PDT by lady lawyer
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To: All

*sigh*

Why must all of these kind of threads always become the same tired “my-belief-in-Jesus-is-better-than-your-belief-in-Jesus” argument?

I’ll clue everyone in...all religion is personal, is based on faith, and is often not rational. What Romney believes may not make sense to you and what you belief not make sense to him. The difference is that I don’t see him out there questioning your mental state of mind about it.


69 posted on 05/18/2007 9:41:45 AM PDT by VegasBaby
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To: lady lawyer
You believe in the resurrection because you accept the words of the witnesses who saw him. I do too, in part. But you didn’t see it yourself, and neither did I.

So the next time you watch some incredulous event on "Eyewitness News @ 11" & you take in what multiple eyewitness journalists (& others) tell you, it doesn't necessarily have any basis in reality or rationality because "you believe because you accept the words of witnesses who saw" what they saw

Again, mind you, I am not saying the above has nothing to do with "faith." (Frankly it takes a lot of "faith" sometimes to stomach what Katie Couric or Dan Rather has said). But what I am saying is that in addition to faith, it at least wouldn't be "irrational" for me to take the word of eyewitness. It wouldn't inherently be "against rationality."

70 posted on 05/18/2007 9:41:49 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: JAKraig

“Comparisons to David Koresh are illogical. David Koresh said that he was Christ.”

Would you vote for a David Koresh follower who was still a believer? Mormons believe Joseph Smith performed miracles and he was quite Koresh like. So, if you are comfortable with that scenario, all power to you, but it creeps me out.


71 posted on 05/18/2007 9:42:29 AM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: FastCoyote
How about this oath that his grandparents took. I wonder if they took their oaths seriously?

"You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children's children unto the third and fourth generation."

Did they teach Mitt to pray for God to avenge this nation? I hope that is one oath they broke.

Mitt, himself took this oath There was the accompanying chant of "I ______ promise not to reveal this, the first token of the Aaronic Priesthood along with it's accompanying name, sign, and penalty; rather than do so I would suffer . . . [raise right hand with extended thumb, palm down with thumb tip under left ear] . . . my life . . . [draw thumb across throat to right ear] . . . to be taken [drop right hand to side]. The officiator mentioned that these movements symbolized ways the life could be taken.

72 posted on 05/18/2007 9:42:36 AM PDT by colorcountry ("You step in crap once and spend the rest of your life scraping it off.")
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To: FastCoyote
I think you are wrong. Do you expect that Christians think they will be sitting in church all day playing harps and singing in the next life? I think that thinking Christians think they will be doing whatever it that Christ will be doing. We are to emulate him, become like him and be in him.

It seems to me that Paul said that a man and woman are to be one as Christ and God are one and that man is to become one with Christ in the same way. Somehow I can’t put it all together but it sounds like we will be sharing godhood with Christ. I think that is what all Christians believe, with the possible exception of you.

73 posted on 05/18/2007 9:42:59 AM PDT by JAKraig (Joseph Kraig)
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To: JAKraig
I do not see the reason for the unabashed hatred of Mormons and their theology on this forum.

OK. You've bought into the notion that if you oppose someone's belief, that is "hatred."

So everytime a Republican opposes a Dem public policy, that is "hatred?" (Stop buying into the liberal notion that to oppose someone is to "hate" them. If you oppose your teenage son's drug habit or irrational behavior, and you take active steps to help set them straight, that is loving them!)

74 posted on 05/18/2007 9:44:08 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: JAKraig; lady lawyer

We should look at the credibility of those witnesses should we not?


75 posted on 05/18/2007 9:44:12 AM PDT by colorcountry ("You step in crap once and spend the rest of your life scraping it off.")
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To: colorcountry

I’m the same age as Mitt. We never took any oath of vengeance. That is pure crap. Where are you getting your information?


76 posted on 05/18/2007 9:46:12 AM PDT by lady lawyer
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To: VegasBaby
Why must all of these kind of threads always become the same tired “my-belief-in-Jesus-is-better-than-your-belief-in-Jesus” argument?

Because the very article in this thread says the following:

" Romney should be given a fair shake.....his policies and leadership qualities should be scrutinized, not his religious affiliation. That kind of bigotry should have gone by the wayside with the 1960 election of John F. Kennedy, a Roman Catholic"

That is why it is being discussed, because the poster asked us to discuss it. It really is simple.

77 posted on 05/18/2007 9:47:18 AM PDT by colorcountry ("You step in crap once and spend the rest of your life scraping it off.")
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To: Colofornian

You are avoiding the point. The Resurrection is not something that be proven through rational means, despite the fact that there were witnesses to it. That was my point.

As to the credibility of the witnesses, all were decent upstanding men. Some had later disagreements with Joseph Smith, and even left the church, but none ever disavowed his testimony regarding the Book of Mormon.


78 posted on 05/18/2007 9:48:14 AM PDT by lady lawyer
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To: lady lawyer
We never took any oath of vengeance.

Nope we didn't. Reread my post. I said his grandparents took the oath....to teach their children down to the third generation. Maybe your grandparents took that oath. I know mine did.

79 posted on 05/18/2007 9:49:26 AM PDT by colorcountry ("You step in crap once and spend the rest of your life scraping it off.")
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To: colorcountry

What is the source of your information regarding oaths that Mitt took?


80 posted on 05/18/2007 9:50:24 AM PDT by lady lawyer
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