Communist symbol returns to Russian Army's flag

AuBC News ^ | Saturday, May 5, 2007. 12:06pm (AEST)

[james500]

Russia's Parliament has voted to restore the communist-era hammer and sickle to the official flag of the Russian Army.

It is expect President Vladimir Putin will ratify the move in time for next week's commemorations marking the end of World War II in Europe.

If so, Russians will again have the Soviet version of the victory banner for next week's Victory in Europe parade in Moscow.

For many Russians, especially the elderly, its symbolism is immense.

The red banner, together with the hammer, sickle and a white star, was the one raised on the Reichstag roof on May 1, 1945.

Millions of people all over the world know that photograph, but in Russia its significance is much deeper, with the Soviet victory over fascism in World War II remaining something seen in almost religious terms.

[spanalot]

“Soviet (not Russian) generals did not send soldiers to battle with a bullet and a gun to the back”

BWAHAHAHAHAHA - you are nothing but a Putin troll.

“Over 1,000,000 Russian soldiers died at Stalingrad, in addition to 2,800 aircraft lost, 4,100 tanks destroyed, and 15,000 artillery pieces lost. Stalingrad also witnessed a new Russian weapon, the penal Battalion. Men who were criminals were now forced to fight. Some were made to walk on minefields, others to charge a German position as bait. Once the Germans would fire and kill them the Russians would know how strong the German position is. No one knows how many died, hundreds of thousands would be a low estimate, since the Soviets kept no records.”

[freemike]

No need to fear though,, the Dems are in control of congress.

[spanalot]

http://www.hot.ee/liitlased/

“The American people would NEVER have endorsed that level of Satanic wholesale slaughter of Russian civilians ... NEVER ... “

If WWIII comes, it will be hundreds of millions of Muslims and Russians that will perish and that is thanks to Putin.

[M. Espinola]

Neo-Sovietism - with a vengence!

Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyuko

[familyop]

"Neo-Sovietism - with a vengence!"

What a shame... I had hoped that Russia would get a more humble and wise leadership.

[JadeEmperor]

"They are commies....I'd call it a good start. Not at all comparable to the sacrifices of our soldiers. FDR should have let the Nazis and Commies kill each other off then dropped a "Little boy" on Moscow once the Nazis had taken over."

Let me tell you something, when the Nazis came into a small Belarus town where my grandmother's sister family lived, they first took (with help from local collaborators) to obtain the lists of Communists and Jews. My family was Jewish and my grandmother sister's husband was an officer in a tank unit in the Red Army (he died early in the summer of 1941 so thankfully he never lived to know what fate befell his family) so it was like double idemnity for them. She had 3 children, 11, 7 and an 8-month old baby. The Nazis murdered all of them right in the street, didn't even bother with the death camp, etc. After the war my family have found an ethnic Belarusian woman neighbor, who saw the whole thing happen. They shot the older kids first and when the mother went insane with grief and tried to attack a Nazi officer and was shot point blank. Then they took the baby and didn't even waste a bullet on it - flung it head against a telegraph pole. I guess in your book "they were all commies and deserved it", right? I wonde if you'd say it to my face, if we ever met in person.

"Not at all comparable to the sacrifices of our soldiers. "

Then maybe again, you're right. You see, there is no surviving generation of Americans, no was there ever any, that witnessed WWII on their own soil and the Nazis move deep in the heart of their own country, sowing death and destruction. There is no collective memory passed down the generations of SS-Sonderkommando units roaming the countryside. Then again, even if it ever happened here, those of Anglo-Saxon lineage would fare better than Slavs or Jews under the Nazi racial laws. So you're right. It is not comparable. Not at all comparable. And for dessert, since you like pictures with a message, here are photos of WWII vets, who are Jewish "repatriants" from Russia, marching on May 9th in Jerusalem, Israel: Proudly displaying their Soviet WWII medals. I guess, some more of the "commies" who "regretfully" were not wiped out by the Nazis? Some of them probably witnessed things which make Omaha beach look like a walk in the park. "Not at all comparable to the sacrifices of our soldiers" indeed.

[JadeEmperor]

"The russian scum in the Kremlin killed 90000000 nonrussians in the last century - what part of that do you not understand"

But you are straying from the original argument. Let me remind you what was said to you by instantgratification.

"simply because the Soviets hadn’t (really) done anything (bad) to the United States."

In that sense instantgratification is 100% correct. The animosity towards the Japanese as a people was caused in large part by the attack on Pearl Harbor. There was no precedent set by the Soviets to account for the same level of negative feeling by the majority of Americans at the time.

[RasterMaster]

Is the topic your family, communists, Nazis or Jews? You are twisting more than a licorice stick. What to Jewish WWII vets have to do with disgarded communist symbols today?

We're talking about something that was tossed aside only recently, and the government seems to be stepping back to their old ways. Maybe Putin longs for the old cloak and dagger KGB days, maybe they just can't resist. Russia appears to still be the threat to the world it always has been, supplying weapons to our enemies.

Where I come from, Nazis and Commies are cut from the same cloth. They both rule by gunpoint. We are dealing with the legacy their regimes left behind in the middle east and elsewhere. Look it up.

If you come to defend or praise Nazi or communists on a conservative website, prepare to be flamed!

[RasterMaster]

"There was no precedent set by the Soviets to account for the same level of negative feeling by the majority of Americans at the time."

There were plenty of reasons to feel the same way about the Soviets. Americans were kept in the dark regarding the real threat that they posed.

The USSR is alive and well.

[M. Espinola]

"What a shame... I had hoped that Russia would get a more humble and wise leadership."

After 70 years of communist dictatorship, the only feasible way Russian could even begin to become a democratically governed republic is, the current Kremlin dictatorship must be swept out 100%, including all the neo-Soviet leftover hacks from the old Soviet Iron Curtain days.

If there is going to be any headway made toward a complete abandonment of the communist past, those officials which were KGB functionaries, agents or Soviet (communist) era party officials must be forbidden from holding public office and or any leadership positions in the Russian armed forces due to the strong possibilities of these element attempting to stage a coup coupled with the fact this die hard element have their 'finger on the button.

Currently the Putin régime is very busy continuing its establishment of a anti-Western, Russian fascist dictatorship, in conjunction with cementing arms deals and strong political allies with America's and Israel's absolute worst enemies.

Putin is leading Russia down the dangerous dead end, to total war with former Moscow controlled independent (free) nations and inevitably NATO and America.

It terms of Russia under the current 'management', advancing toward real freedom is out of the question due to the likes of Putin as the head of state of the new Evil Empire.

America's needs to face the facts regarding Russia remaining America's and free world enemy. A serious threat which will have to be dealt with in the future, a future not too distant.

[spanalot]

We attacked the nazis and we should have attacked the russians too before they stole the nuke secrets.

[RusIvan]

Yes, it is true RusIvan. Khrushchev had a Ukrainian somewhere in his family, because “khrushch” is a distinctly Ukrainian word. But he considered himself Russian and had Russians in his family as well.==

Khruschev indeed Ukranian. He lived there, machuted there and so on. He gave Ukraine the Crimea. No Russian could do that. The Kruschev son emigrated to USA. No Russian politician son did such thing. So Kruschev and his pamily are truly Khohols.

Chaikovskii has Russian-ukranian decent. Many people in Russia has some. Me too. My grandfather were Kazak too but other hrandfather was NOT. So what? I have lot of Russian blood in my veins together with Ukranian. Mostofall I all life live in Russia. SO I’m Russian.

[instantgratification]

Sorry, but I am an ethnic Ukrainian. From Western Ukraine. I lived in a large Ukrainian community whose members emcompassed the descendants of emigres from the 1890's all the way up to after the second world war. I probably know more DP's than you will ever know. Like all Ukrainian kids, I spent Saturday mornings in Ukrainian school, taught by DP's, and as nationalistic Ukrainians, we were vehemently anti communist. Most of that community was, and is, in fact, also anti Russian. Personally, I don't look at the ethnic origins of an individual. Who they are is relevant, and Ukrainians often forget that Russians, too, suffered under communism.

My spouse's family have roots in Ukraine going back to before Kyiv Rus'.

Many of my family members who did not emigrate (cousins) spent time in gulags, as did members of my spouse's family (those who were not outright executed).

I lived in the USSR for some period. I actually met a lot of former Red Army soldiers - most of them ethnic Ukrainians. I also knew very well a Red Army officer, God rest his soul, who was captured by the Germans, fell in love with a German, and escaped to the West after the war (his kids speak perfect Ukrainian, as does his wife, though all with a strong German accent.) My spouse's family had a family member killed in Stalingrad. What you will hear time and again is the Red Army did not want to fight for communist. But, the reality is, the German occupation of Ukraine was just as brutal as the Bolshevik occupation. That is why Soviets were willing to fight an enemy who was far better trained and equipped. When you march through your land, and see villages burnt to the ground, and the bones of women and babies in the rubble (thrown in by the "civilized" Germans), you know this is a fight to the death.

And Putin had nothing to do with that. So, now that I have established my "bona fides" you are incorrect So, I think my bona fides vis a vis communists and, indeed, Russians is likely a lot

[instantgratification]

add -

is likely a lot more credible than someone who is driven by a political agenda, and who, evidently, has scant knowledge of history or what people really endured under the Bolshevik regime.

[instantgratification]

add -

is likely a lot more credible than someone who is driven by a political agenda, and who, evidently, has scant knowledge of history or what people really endured under the Bolshevik regime.

[instantgratification]

No, Khrushchev stated he was Russian. You are mixing ethnicity and geography.

Tchaikovsky was of mixed descent - some Ukrainian, some Russian, some German, some French

The number of ethnic Russians living in Ukraine is large. That doesn't make them Ukrainians. They consider themselves Russian. They don't speak Ukrainian. They attend Russian schools, read Russian papers, listen to Russian television. And that was the case with Khrushchev.

You can't remake history to suit yourself.

[instantgratification]

Excellent post.

Belarussia suffered the highest level of casualties of all Soviet republics - 1 in 4 Belarussians (including Jews) perished. Belarus had a huge Jewish population before WWII.

In my spouse's neighborhood there was also a Red Army soldier. He had marched all the way to Berlin and back. After the war, he lived a very modest life, as a factory worker. On V-Day, he proudly came out wearing his medals. Until then, nobody knew his history. He was highly decorated, and rightly so, he was very proud of the fact that he had saved his country from the Nazis. His wife (also Jewish), had been a field nurse who also made it to Berlin and back. They came back, and their parents, aunts and uncles were dead. All shot at Babi Yar.

My spouse's grandmother told of the day Kyiv's Jews were to be deported. An order appeared for Jews to arrive at a train station. They came, carrying little bags. Grandmother, God rest her soul, said as the thousands lined up, it was so quiet, you could almost hear a pin drop. Of course, they were not taken to trains, but to a concentration camp, and within a week, the shootings at Babi Yar started. A few neighbors had been away, coming back to empty homes. Many were hidden by neighbors, claiming their passports were lost. The younger ones survived with neighbors, posing as their children. Many of the older ones were deported to Germany as Slav slave laborers.

[instantgratification]

You know nothing of communism, and your Yushchenko photos prove it.

Yushchenko was the same commie you denounce. There is just a much a chance he poisoned himself to buttress a failing campaign than there is of some foreign entity doing the job.

[instantgratification]

And you come to the conclusion that Russians ignore the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact on what basis? Do you read the works of Russian historians? There is no denial of this pact.

Molotov, incidentally, never trusted Hitler and believed he would attack. He warned Stalin of this and was ignored.

[instantgratification]

Patton could not have marched into Moscow.

I'm going to go a bit back in history to address many inaccuracies in this thread -

After the night of the Long Knives, Stalin viewed Hitler in terms similar to his own personality - as a dictator attempting to consolidate his personal power. Molotov, who had far more dealings with the Germans, told Stalin repeatedly that he could not trust the Nazis, that they were different from the Bolsheviks because the former were buttressed by large (corporate) capitalist interests. Stalin refused to accept Molotov's assessment. Stalin also was given the plan for Operation Barbarossa by Richard Sorge (who I referred to previously, though didn't name). He chose to believe the information was inaccurate, even turning over Sorge's identity to the Germans.

The reasons for the initial swift German advance are many. One was the lack of military officers in the Red Army. But even more than this was the fact that the Soviet people initially viewed the Germans as liberators. They were greeted with bread and salt in Ukraine. The Red Army was not willing to fight for Stalinism. They allowed themselves to be captured, believing the Germans would be less brutal than the communists who, shortly before WWII, had unleased the NKVD in Western Ukraine (the Germans discovered 10,000 corpses under NKVD headquarters in Lviv), and less than a decade before, had starved to death 10 million Ukrainian peasants, and deported millions more during the Holodomor. [It should be noted that a similar artificial famine was also unleashed in Southern Russia, a mix of Russian and Ukrainian peasants, with similar numbers of dead.]
However, it was not long before German intentions became well observed by the Soviet population. The initial Red Army POW's were treated brutally. Most starved to death in barbed wire concentration camps within spitting distance of Kyiv. Those that survived were put on marches, where many died of hunger and cold, or were shot to death. Over 3 million POW's died as a result of these actions, and those that didn't ended up in concentration camps. Tens of thousands of Red Army POW's died in concentration camps throughout German occupied territories, including Auschwitz.

Indiscriminate bombing and burning of villages, the slaughter of entire villages where a Jew was hidden (this punishment occurred only in Poland, Belarus and Ukraine), the execution of 10 innocent Soviets for every German soldier killed in Belarus and Ukraine (their bodies would hang in the public square), the removal of Soviets between ages 15 to 60 from occupied Soviet territory to Germany, where they were slave laborers, and the destruction of churches turned the occupied population against the Germans quite quickly. All these actions were used by Moscow, appearing in newspapers, to let the population know what was in store for them as the Germans advanced. In addition, Stalin turned to the great military minds of Imperial Russia - Zhukov and Shapashnikov to lead the war effort. Zhukov, in his memoirs stated that Stalin promised him free reign, and promised that there would be major changes in the USSR if they defeated the Nazis. His soldiers were very loyal to him, and Zhukov was bitter about Stalin's lies. Shapashnikov, always under watch, remained in Moscow planning Soviet war strategy. Nevertheless, it was their entrance on the Soviet stage which changed the course of the war on the Eastern front. (I do not intend to discuss other aspects, such as Paton's factory innovations, which allowed the Soviets to produce tanks and planes very quickly - about 600 T-34's a day, for example, from behind the safety of the Urals.)

Now, when the Allies had always promised the opening of a second front, recognizing the Soviets were bearing the brunt of the war. This was first discussed by British representatives sent to meet with Stalin in Moscow, and was also discussed at the Tehran Conference. However, that second front was not opened until June, 1944. By that time, the definitive Soviet battles had occurred - Stalingrad, Kursk, the siege of Leningrad, even the retaking of Kyiv, and the Red Army was advancing both west and north. Moreover, when the Battle of the Bulge occurred (the first major battle for US ground troops against the Germans in Europe - Americans had previously been involved in operations in Italy), the Americans and Brits complained to Stalin of the heavy losses, and bombarded Moscow with telegraphs , requesting Stalin "do something". Stalin called Zhukov, telling him their the Allies needed help. So, the Red Army commenced a counter operation, resulting in Germans pulling troops from the Western front to the East.

The Red Army of course took Berlin. Some historians have argued the Allies wanted the Soviets to achieve this symbolic victory but others note the remaining Allies advanced quickly, afraid that the Red Army, now very strong, would march all the way to the Atlantic, sweeping Europe for the Bolsheviks.

What also has been overlooked in these posts is that most of the Wehrmacht forces were on the Eastern front. The most hardened German divisions - 270 of them - fought in the East. Compare that to what the Brits and Americans faced in North Africa (9 to 20 German divisions), and Italy (7 to 26 divisions - largely not German), or even Western Europe (9 divisions when landing in France in 1944, and between 56 and 75 divisions in the remainder of Western Europe.

The Soviet-German front covered over 6,200 km, compared to 350 km in North Africa, 300 km in Italy, and a maximum of 800 km on the Western front. The Red Army annihilated 607 Axis divisions, the remaining Allied Forces, 176 enemy divisions. 73.5 per cent of Germany's total war casualties died on the Eastern Front.

Not a single Soviet family was unaffected by WWII. Before the release of Soviet archives, the best estimate of total Soviet casualties was 23 million. Recently, that has been increased, but, in reality, nobody knows the total number.

No country sufferened similar numbers of civilian casualties, or, for that matter, military casualties. This is why the Great Patriotic War has a different dimension in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine than in the West, and why Soviet symbols remain important to those Red Army soldiers who rightly take their place on V-Day.