Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy
There is not tithing bill, the show you how much you have paid in in tithing and ask you if that is a full tithe, then they take your word for it.
(Young's Literal Translation from the Greek) Notice the context: 'work out' can also be 'show forth'.
You Mormon Apologists seem to think this 'show forth' means you have to do it because Jesus won't kick in His Grace until you've made Him owe it to you through your works of 'righteousness' ... which works are of course as filthy rags when done to earn His Righteousness offered to you as a gift through faith.
First lets clear up a missconception you Trinity folks have of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints!
The LDS believe in Saved by Grace remember we have 3 degree of Glory and unless you are a Son of Perdition or one who have a witness and renouced the witness which is called blaspheme against the Holy Ghost!
Matt. 12 31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mark 3 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Luke 12 10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
Heb. 6 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb. 10 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
As the Philippians would have 'shown forth' the evidence of their salvation in Paul's presence, he urges them to 'show forth' the evidence of their salvation in his absence, 'lest any man (or restornu) be found boasting'.
You are assuming I boast MHGinTN?
May I remind you MHGinTN that the saints are commanded to-
As the 13th verese shows, it is God in them doing the work for His own good pleasure. If you study the scriptures in their context, you avoid many doctrinal or canon errors.
13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
I recieved that understanding in my Patriarcal Blessing.
You must never doubt your own ability to do these things. You must have confidence that our Heavenly Father will give you all the powers you need to serve Him. You must recognize that there are forces outside your self, powers of heaven that are available to you through this gospel.(the holy Spirit and the Lord angels)
The enabling power come through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
These blessing from the Lord come through covenants I know the Lord is doing his part and also expects man to also to his part of the contract for it to be honored.
you should also read the verse before Phil 2
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1-And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
2-to the glory of God the Father
What happened to verse thirteen (Philippians 2:13), Resty, the one in which Paul clearly states that it is God in the Philippians doing the works?
I'm glad you raised the question.
First of all re: Phil 2:12, is Paul giving every human some recipe for salvation? Hardly. This letter is written very specifically to a church...not generic unbelievers.
Secondly we see an example where you wrestle a verse out of a vital context in search of a prooftext. Continue reading to PHIL. 2:13: "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure."
Whose really doing the work THROUGH us? God the Holy Spirit, of which we are but a mere temple. So stop trying to claim credit and glory for the "worketh" which Paul says of is Him. (It's not very becoming when a co-worker claims credit for something you did, right? So stop. Repent. Tell the Holy Spirit you're sorry).
Thirdly, salvation = to be made whole by being rescued from something (spiritually from sin, the devil & death; physically this world). If you are totally disabled, tell me, what kind of "working out" can you do? If I was once disabled (and spiritually I was), and if I now am able to work out spiritually, then I'm exercising from a starting point where God has already healed me. Right?
All Paul is saying there: He's made you whole. He has already saved you (note how many times, for example, John talks about eternal life in the present tense..."have eternal life"--not "will have.") Now exercise that salvation with fear and trembling.
Is 62
As for Isaiah 62, read carefully. Zion is a "her" right? It doesn't say "HER" reward, right? It doesn't say "HER" work, right? It doesn't say that God has no choice but to reward the daughter of Zion as a part of "HER" reward. It's "His" reward and "His" work--it's the Lord's to give, right?
There are other verses you can pick that talk about "reward" or "crowns" that God gives to folks. But so what? The Bible talks about them, but always in the context of eternal life as a gift, right?
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
If I wanted to: I could give you an all-expense paid trip to some South Pacific island. A free, total gift. Then once there, I could give you some valuable things that you could enjoy as a type of reward that's tied to let's say, volunteer work you did.
Just because your behavior influenced me in deciding what "valuable things" to give you once you arrived in the South Pacific, doesn't mean you "earned" your way to the South Pacific.
Somehow, you would have us believe that by what great shape you are in (your ability to "work out"), you could walk on water to a South Pacific island. It doesn't work that way.
The distance to a South Pacific island minus a viable way to get there doesn't even begin to describe the distance to heaven minus a viable way to get there.
So let me give you a standard warning: "Don't try this at home."
“I now do good works for others because I love God and I love them. If it earns me nothing other that shear joy and the glory of God it is more than enough!”
That’s excellent.
So do I, as best I can.
Why am I condemned for it?
could you please post the Young’s transalation of James Chapter 2? I am curious to see how he rendered that.
Placemarker!
“This kind of grace, then, would never kick in til you’ve done all you can do. Who qualifies? Point out ONE person besides Jesus Christ who can say He’s done everything He could do. (By our sins of omission alone, we all flunk)”
That’s why there’s repentance. We all need it.
Had the Olympics been in say, Tennessee [isn't that home of the Southern Baptists?] instead of Salt Lake City, I'm sure the So. Baptists would have had a formidable Olympic presence. But it wouldn't quite compare to the SLC spin machine it had going for the SLC Olympics put forth by the LDS church headquarters.
Secondly, ya gotta remember that the LDS church only had about 300 missionaries mid-20th century and has been fairly culturally isolated in the West until this last generation coming forth. That means it has been held in more obscurity than mainline and evangelical Christian denominations.
LDS would have more to benefit from in shedding this than say, a mainline or evangelical president.
Okay, we all need repentance. But the Book of Mormon says that ya don't get grace til you've done all you can do.
I mean I can't even say I've done everything I could do as a parent, let alone as a child of God!
Do you really think you're going to come to a point where you can look with 100% satisfaction at your spiritual and neighborly track record and say, "Yup! I've done all I can do. Go ahead, Lord, open the grace faucet."
“And that is good enough. Barring any clear agenda by him to promote Mormonism in office (not something he did as governor), his religion is not a factor in whether I will ultimately support him.
It is his reliability on adhering to and implementing the conservative party platform that is the standard. He has neither passed that test fully nor failed it yet. He is an attractive candidate and his merits as a candidate warrant a fair hearing.”
I agree. Frankly, if he were to display a clear agenda to promote Mormonism while in office, I would be first in line to want him impeached. That’s a clear violation of the separation of Church and State; it would certainly fall within my view of the scope of High Crimes were he to purposefully violate the Constitution like that.
Still, it’s an academic debate; I just can’t see it happening.
That is true; as uncomfortable as it may be for little ol’ me to be part of a group that is about to go under such a microscope, it is fantastic publicity. For many, it’s their first real encounter with the LDS Church. Those who are looking for what we have to offer will be better able to find it.
Bump this thread
Excellent point, and one I hadn't considered before.
Likewise, how DOES an LDS believer who holds those past general authorities in high esteem--those who talked about black skin as a curse related to the pre-existence--anyway, how DOES a Mormon get past that?
Isn't a "non-valiant" pre-existent vantage point always going to link the thought that "Oh, he's of another color. He was neutral. He wasn't valiant?"
I mean it sounds to me like some LDS general authorities have forever either tainted or even ruined that word, because it can never be separated from a form of racism.
If you really read my post you would have understood that the LDS believe in grace.
As the 13th verese shows, it is God in them doing the work for His own good pleasure. If you study the scriptures in their context, you avoid many doctrinal or canon errors.
13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
I recieved that understanding in my Patriarcal Blessing.
You must never doubt your own ability to do these things. You must have confidence that our Heavenly Father will give you all the powers you need to serve Him. You must recognize that there are forces outside your self, powers of heaven that are available to you through this gospel.(the holy Spirit and the Lord angels)
The enabling power come through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
These blessing from the Lord come through covenants I know the Lord is doing his part and also expects man to also to his part of the contract for it to be honored.
I don’t mean to offend, and I don’t want a fight; but there have been many instances where someone who is a member of the LDS Church has posted an equally cogent, complete, and referenced post as yours, which reaches the conclusion that faith and works go hand in hand, and those who disagree with use have simply dismissed it as “spin,” “twisting scripture to suit your needs,” and “dodging the issue.”
The fact is, there are verses on this topic in the Bible that are contradictory. It does no good to beat each other over the head with them.
I suggest we all simply realize that the other side has valid points, and logical reasons for reaching their conclusion. Can we agree to disagree on the faith v. works issue?
If you exercise faith and are saved by faith, fine.
If I exercise faith and works and am saved by faith, fine. The worst thing that happens is I waste some effort. It shouldn’t matter to you; it’s my effort to waste.
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