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I don’t mean to offend, and I don’t want a fight; but there have been many instances where someone who is a member of the LDS Church has posted an equally cogent, complete, and referenced post as yours, which reaches the conclusion that faith and works go hand in hand, and those who disagree with use have simply dismissed it as “spin,” “twisting scripture to suit your needs,” and “dodging the issue.”

The fact is, there are verses on this topic in the Bible that are contradictory. It does no good to beat each other over the head with them.

I suggest we all simply realize that the other side has valid points, and logical reasons for reaching their conclusion. Can we agree to disagree on the faith v. works issue?

If you exercise faith and are saved by faith, fine.
If I exercise faith and works and am saved by faith, fine. The worst thing that happens is I waste some effort. It shouldn’t matter to you; it’s my effort to waste.

I don’t mean to offend, and I don’t want a fight; but there have been many instances where someone who is a member of the LDS Church has posted an equally cogent, complete, and referenced post as yours, which reaches the conclusion that faith and works go hand in hand, and those who disagree with use have simply dismissed it as “spin,” “twisting scripture to suit your needs,” and “dodging the issue.”

Your post, probably inadvertently, shows why you'd find that if you visit the Smoky Backroom sometime (that secret underwear had better have an asbestos lining), you'd find that in many theological discussions, you were much closer or in complete agreement with Roman Catholic side than to Protestants, Baptists, charismatics and evangelicals.

Just an observation. When the "faith alone, grace alone" vs. "faith plus works" argument comes up, this is how the theological divide falls.

Roman Catholics would simply have fewer problem with Mormons on these theological issues. And, of course, Roman Catholics have had a certain amount of hostility from non-Catholics in this country as well, similarly to the experience of Mormons.

Can we agree to disagree on the faith v. works issue? If you exercise faith and are saved by faith, fine. If I exercise faith and works and am saved by faith, fine.

Well, if that's not the "spirit of the age," I don't know what is. You're saying "If something is true for you, fine. But if something radically in opposition then that, too, is true? Whatever's true for you is fine; whatever's true for me is fine, too?"

The fact is, there are verses on this topic in the Bible that are contradictory.

Lots of marriages are an apparent contradiction. Two folks who don't seemingly belong in the same household.

But despite the apparent conflict, many get along just fine...at least over the long haul. They often complement each other.

Faith "vs". works

Listen, I don't pit faith and works as enemies unless works undermines faith. And that's exactly how Paul framed it for the Galatians ("you foolish Galatians," he said...see verses below).

Let's face it, faith and works can not only be perfect friends, but are meant to be "married."

Now that doesn't mean they are "married" in that one group (evangelicals) stresses faith and another group (Mormons) stress works.

But think about it. Why would works mean anything at all for someone who never or rarely exhibited faith in Jesus Christ and a life beyond this world? So I know when LDS try to pit works against faith, they don't mean a "faithless works."

Likewise what's a faith & trust never embodied? Why would I entrust myself to another in marriage, for example, if "love in action" was never or rarely a part of that. So I know when some Evangelicals try to pit faith against works, they don't mean a "disabled faith."

So your proposal to "agree to disagree" makes no sense if all you're doing is calling one group or the other to surrender to the above straw men perspectives of the other. Nor would it have made sense for Paul to surrender to the flesh & law-focused Galatians. So what exactly did the Galatians embrace about works that sabotages faith?

"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?...He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit...doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Gal 3:3, 5-6)

In the case of these Galatians, they were actually allowing their flesh-based works to undermine their faith.

For Paul, what people group was the opposite of the Galatians? It was the Philippians:

(1) Whereas the Galatians started "in the Spirit" and were trying to finish in the flesh by obeying laws, look at what Paul promised to the Philippians: "...he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phil. 1:6)

So again. Who is "performing this work?" Mere men called Philippians? No!!! God!!! God is the performer THROUGH US! [Who gets the credit & glory? He does!]

(2) In an earlier post I cited Phil 2:12 needs to be rounded out with v. 13. They are not "contradictory." What? you think Paul is "full of contradictions" in the very same paragraph?

Phil 2:13: "For it is God which worketh in you..." Whose working in you? Your puny power? Your puffed-up obedience? Your prideful spiritual merit badges? Yet we know that if God works in us, we know we alone are never His only "targets."

So anybody truly experiencing His work IN our lives, will also experience His work THRU our lives. So that salvation is "worked out." The very meaning of "work out your own salvation" carries the same connotation as your fitness exercise. Because our bodies are fit and worthy to carry out exercise, we do so. (It's the ailing who can't work out)

But we'd never be fit had we never been GIVEN healthy bodies. Works are always a by-product of faith. Faith WORKS.

So stop trying to pit works against faith. Because the only time when works truly nullifies faith is when folks sabotage it to the degree that Paul calls them fools.

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." (Gal. 2:21)

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse...But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident:for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith..." (Gal. 3:10-12a)

Transcript
Covenants: Our Bond with the Divine Helping Us “Out of the Pit” Victor L. Ludlow
http://www.byui.edu/Presentations/Transcripts/Devotionals/2004_03_09_Ludlow.htm

Video
The Savior’s Covenant Teachings in Third... Victor Ludlow
http://byubwmv.byu.edu/edweek/2004/VLudlow04.wmv

154 covenants 37 are from the Savior himself!