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They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today
Saundra Duffy

Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy

They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious bigotry, alive and well today

May 4, 2007 - by Saundra Duffy-Hawkins

“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?

There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.

Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.

According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)

While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.

For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.

Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?

So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):

1) “It is just too weird.

2) “A Mormon president will supercharge Mormons’ missionary work.

3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)

Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)

Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).

As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.

Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.

Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.

The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)

It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)

During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.

Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.

In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.

In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.

I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)

King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)

King signs off with “Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood”.

There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.

A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.

References

ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.

Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.

Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.

Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm

Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org

Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57

Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: boggsforgovernor; cuespookymusic; election; lds; mormon; mormons; romney; whitesalamanderblues
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To: tantiboh

“So... it’s taken you five months to do the right thing? If he’s a criminal, take action!”

He became a criminal this April 15, so give it a rest.


2,781 posted on 05/16/2007 7:49:23 PM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: DanielLongo
I was asked which law he referred to. I had to give you my best guess since Jesus did not specify. Clearly it was understood by those who opposed him or he would not have referenced it. Neither is it that one verse. I gave you the whole exchange as it is written in the scriptures. I clearly fits the context of his reply and what he is trying to tell them. Or are you saying that particular verse is translated incorrectly?

No, I asked what verse he was talking about,. not which law. The fact that he doesn't say, you had to go look for possibilities. The fact that the possibilities don't come from the law (first 5 books of the OT, otherwise known as the Pentateuch) creates a problem.

Here's another verse that sticks out like a sore thumb.

Jhn 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

How can it be that his resurrection was prophecied, yet, no one knew about?

2,782 posted on 05/16/2007 8:00:58 PM PDT by Netizen (If we can't locate/deport illegals, how will we get them to come forward to pay their $3,250 fines?)
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To: colorcountry
Mormons practice public speaking from the time they are about five years old (or even younger) in Sunday School or Primary.

I took speech class and that gal would have failed.

2,783 posted on 05/16/2007 8:03:25 PM PDT by Netizen (If we can't locate/deport illegals, how will we get them to come forward to pay their $3,250 fines?)
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To: Netizen

Try watching the somnambulistic tomes issuing forth from the pupit at Mormon General Conference or Semi-annual Conference.

This is how Mormons worship, with r e v e r e n c e. Sometimes that reverance brings on loud bursts of snoring.


2,784 posted on 05/16/2007 8:07:08 PM PDT by colorcountry ("You step in crap once and spend the rest of your life scraping it off.")
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To: FastCoyote
I could care less what goes on inside the Temples. But don’t try and pretend that Mormons are no different than other Christians, because your Temples are monuments to secrecy and divisiveness meant to set you apart.

I've been to Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist and Baptist churches/services and can't even begin to imagine any of them refusing people of other faiths or telling them 'none of your business'.

2,785 posted on 05/16/2007 8:08:09 PM PDT by Netizen (If we can't locate/deport illegals, how will we get them to come forward to pay their $3,250 fines?)
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To: colorcountry
This is how Mormons worship, with r e v e r e n c e. Sometimes that reverance brings on loud bursts of snoring.

That and rushing through with slurring of words. Real reverence. /sarcasm

2,786 posted on 05/16/2007 8:11:06 PM PDT by Netizen (If we can't locate/deport illegals, how will we get them to come forward to pay their $3,250 fines?)
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To: DelphiUser

“Ever and ever the keys he will hold”.

Those words are from that song about Joseph Smith. What keys is he holding?


2,787 posted on 05/16/2007 8:13:35 PM PDT by Netizen (If we can't locate/deport illegals, how will we get them to come forward to pay their $3,250 fines?)
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To: tantiboh
This is not correct. He attended the Methodist church; his name appears on some attendance roles. He did not officially join them>

He did join the membership class, and it was recorded on the books; it didn't last long because someone recognized him and the character he represented & sought to have him removed prior to full recognition as a member.

Wesley P. Walters, after doing some digging 36 yrs. ago, came up with info that was then published by the Utah Christian Tract Society (7&8/71 newsletter):

..."Perhaps the death of his first-born son on June 15, 1828 induced him to seek membership in the Methodist Church to which his wife belonged since she was seven years old. The 'prophet' Joseph's role as a Methodist member did not last very long, however, only three days--according to statements made by his wife's cousins, Joseph and Hiel Lewis. In their local newspaper at Amboy, Illinois, they told of their earlier years with Joseph Smith in Pennsylvania and of his uniting with the Methodist class: "'He presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister, not suspecting evil, put his name on the class book, in the absence of some of the official members.' (THE AMBOY JOURNAL, April 30, 1879, page 1.).

"When Joseph Lewis, who was 21 at the time (about a year and a half younger than Smith), learned of this act, he felt that Joseph's manner of life rendered him unfit to be a member and told him either to 'publicly ask to have his name stricken from the class book, or stand a disiplinary investigation.' Mr. Lewis gave further details about the incident a month after the first article appeared in the Amboy paper, and he wrote: "'I, with Joshua McKune, a local preacher at the time, I think in June, 1828, heard on Saturday, that Joe Smith had joined the church on Wednesday afternoon, (as it was customary in those days to have circuit preaching at my father's house on week-day). We thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer, a dealer in enchantments and bleeding ghosts, in it. So on Sunday we went to father's, the place of meeting that day, and got there in season to see Smith and talked to him some time in father's shop before the meeting. Told him that his occupation, habits, and moral character were at variance with the discipline, that his name would be a disgrace to the church, that there should have been recantation, confession and at least promised reformation--That he could that day publicly ask that his name be stricken from the class book, or stand investigation. He chose the former, and did that very day make request that his name be taken off the class book.' (THE AMBOY JOURNAL, June 11, 1879, pg. 1).

"Mr. Lewis' more detailed statement was called forth because the original statement he and his brother had made had been challenged by a local Mormon elder from the Reorganized Church. This elder, Mr. Edwin Cadwell, was a neighbor of Mr. Michael Morse, the brother-in-law of Joseph Smith. Mr. Cadwell stated that Mr. Morse told him that 'Smith's name remained on the class book...for about six months, when it was simply 'dropped' as Smith did not seek to become a full member.' (THE AMBOY JOURNAL, May 21, 1879. pg. 1).

"Mr. Morse had been the 'class leader' at that time and had been the one who had taken Smith's name for recording in the class book. (THE AMBOY JOURNAL, July 2, 1879, pg. 1). To the statement of Mr. Morse, Joseph Lewis replied that, 'If said Morse was a leader at that time, and Smith's name remained on the class book six months, the class leader carelessly or wickedly neglected his duty.' (THE AMBOY JOURNAL, June 11, 1879, pg. 1).

"Like so many of the early Methodist records, the early class books of Harmony (now Lanesboro) Church are lost, so we will never know for certain whether Joseph Smith remained a member for only three days or for six months."

2,788 posted on 05/16/2007 8:38:32 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Netizen

Blameless is different from sinless.


2,789 posted on 05/16/2007 8:53:12 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy ( Mitt has the best hair!)
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To: FastCoyote

“He lives in a million dollar house across from the Temple. I learned a lot there.”

Well, our Ward is poor and our Bishop lives in a small modest house with a great tall flagpole proudly flying the American flag. It’s out of proportion with his little house. Ha!


2,790 posted on 05/16/2007 8:57:37 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy ( Mitt has the best hair!)
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To: Saundra Duffy
Luke 1
5   THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6   And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

---------------------------------------------------------

Blameless is different from sinless.

----------------------------------------------------------

Let's look at them both, closer.

1) blameless, deserving no censure, free from fault or defect

sin(less)
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken
4) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
5) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin

They didn't wander from God's commandments and ordinances.
2,791 posted on 05/16/2007 9:15:04 PM PDT by Netizen (If we can't locate/deport illegals, how will we get them to come forward to pay their $3,250 fines?)
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To: Saundra Duffy

Occurs to me I should link those words.

blameless - http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=273

sin - http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=264


2,792 posted on 05/16/2007 9:28:14 PM PDT by Netizen (If we can't locate/deport illegals, how will we get them to come forward to pay their $3,250 fines?)
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To: FastCoyote

“He became a criminal this April 15, so give it a rest.”

Well? Either do something or don’t; but don’t bring him up in an attempt to rub his poor example off on those of us Mormons who are perfectly respectable people. It’s an oblique attempt to try and intimate that the LDS Church supports criminal behavior, or that Mormons are inherently bad people, or some other such rubbish, and I’m calling you out on it.

Every barrel has got some bad apples. If this guy is one of them, do us all a favor and toss him out.


2,793 posted on 05/16/2007 9:51:28 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: colorcountry; DelphiUser

I once, like 23 years ago, read part of a book written by a Parley Prat some early Mormon apostle leader.

DelphiUser sounds a lot like him.


2,794 posted on 05/16/2007 10:03:56 PM PDT by Truth-Miner (The Child in us desires Truth to bend to our perspective, may we all be Adults.)
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To: Netizen; Saundra Duffy

I went to this site to see what the original Greek met in the use of the word blameless.

http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Luk&chapter=1&verse=6

At the bottom of the page I found this note:
tn Grk “walking in” (an idiom for one’s lifestyle).
sn The description of Zechariah and Elizabeth as following… blamelessly was not to say that they were sinless, but that they were faithful and pious. Thus a practical righteousness is meant here (Gen 6:8; Deut 28:9)

So sinless and blameless are not the same thing in this case. Just my opinion...


2,795 posted on 05/16/2007 10:21:31 PM PDT by Truth-Miner (The Child in us desires Truth to bend to our perspective, may we all be Adults.)
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To: Truth-Miner

Jesus was the only sinless One who ever lived down here on earth. Yahoo!


2,796 posted on 05/16/2007 10:23:21 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy ( Mitt has the best hair!)
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To: tantiboh

“It’s an oblique attempt to try and intimate that the LDS Church supports criminal behavior, or that Mormons are inherently bad people, or some other such rubbish, and I’m calling you out on it.”

Okay, Harry Reid. QED

“Every barrel has got some bad apples. If this guy is one of them, do us all a favor and toss him out.”

Trust me, you have no idea how hard that has been. Especially since he has acted as if he were a god and no one would call him on it. Besides, if I go after him the Mormon Church will claim I’m a bigot.


2,797 posted on 05/16/2007 10:29:29 PM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: Saundra Duffy

Yep! Ya wont get a nay sayer(sic) on that one. At least from the Christian crowd...


2,798 posted on 05/16/2007 10:38:05 PM PDT by Truth-Miner (The Child in us desires Truth to bend to our perspective, may we all be Adults.)
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To: Truth-Miner
Your entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. I disagree with you and find that the following sums things up well.

5) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin

They didn't wander from God's commandments and ordinances.

Sometimes, the text means what is says. Not everything has to be tortured and convoluted.

2,799 posted on 05/16/2007 10:38:26 PM PDT by Netizen (If we can't locate/deport illegals, how will we get them to come forward to pay their $3,250 fines?)
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To: Truth-Miner

Is anger a sin? What about lieing?


2,800 posted on 05/16/2007 10:40:38 PM PDT by Netizen (If we can't locate/deport illegals, how will we get them to come forward to pay their $3,250 fines?)
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