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They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today
Saundra Duffy

Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy

They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious bigotry, alive and well today

May 4, 2007 - by Saundra Duffy-Hawkins

“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?

There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.

Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.

According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)

While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.

For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.

Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?

So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):

1) “It is just too weird.

2) “A Mormon president will supercharge Mormons’ missionary work.

3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)

Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)

Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).

As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.

Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.

Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.

The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)

It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)

During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.

Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.

In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.

In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.

I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)

King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)

King signs off with “Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood”.

There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.

A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.

References

ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.

Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.

Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.

Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm

Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org

Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57

Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: boggsforgovernor; cuespookymusic; election; lds; mormon; mormons; romney; whitesalamanderblues
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To: colorcountry

“Again you are failing to grasp the immensity on the onslaught against Mormonism.”

I believe you are failing to grasp the immense apathy with which the vast, vast majority of the conservative base views this issue. Your assertion that you would never vote for a Mormon (I think you said that before) are in line with a tiny fraction of the base - and even the majority of people who agree with you, I think, would hold their noses and vote for Romney if Clinton were the opponent.

I predict that we will find that Romney’s religion will fizzle and die as an issue, if he winds up being the nominee. The Clinton machine is too savvy to make such an obvious blunder.


1,601 posted on 05/09/2007 2:41:19 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: greyfoxx39; MEGoody

“If one were to get away from the Mitt threads on FR and sample a good portion of the other political threads, one will see over and over the doubt expressed (without any religious connotation) of Mitt’s sincerity.”

I agree, Romney will have to prove himself somehow. Still, Reagan, Bush Sr., and a host of others have managed to do so in the past. There is ample precedent.


1,602 posted on 05/09/2007 2:42:57 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: Colofornian

The program wasn’t entirely correct, and that sporadic inaccuracy was not limited to this topic.

While missionaries are given guidelines on how to spend their time - i.e. be back to your apartment by 9:00 - they schedule their own time. How they spend the twelve or so hours a day working is entirely up to them.

The exception is in the MTC (Missionary Training Center), where things are indeed quite regimented for the new missionaries. This is the case for a period of time ranging from three to nine weeks. Essentially, I think, they’re trying to “shock” your system into a good work ethic - not to mention teach you a language in two months.


1,603 posted on 05/09/2007 2:47:49 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: hunter112

You might have a point, but this time around, by Feb. 6th, it’ll all be decided. I don’t think it would make a difference whether or not Romney got New York, other than the delegate count.


1,604 posted on 05/09/2007 2:52:18 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: P-Marlowe; sevenbak; DelphiUser; Saundra Duffy; Utah Girl
You can choose to believe someone who takes liberty with the original revelation I choose not too!

What Joseph Smith said at the King Follet furernal I whole heartedly believe I know the first time I read it that it rang true!

How I did not totally understand but I knew it was true.

I know the world like to things the word perfect mean flawless, but the terminology is complete as to the contrary of being incomplete.

As in the Lord vineyard when the harvest is ripe it is complete and ready to be process.

God is sinless so that is what seperates him from man!

I Had no clue while I was to alsp memention the topic on "perfect and sinless" but now that I read this I know why that came into my mind.

In the 15th paragraph of the same address, we find the following:

"And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead, and the living, that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation.

For their salvation is necessary, and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers, 'that they without us cannot be made perfect;'neither can we without our dead be made perfect." (perfect means complete)

This address was given in April, 1842, not very long previous to his martyrdom. Again, in April, 1844, he preached a sermon at the funeral of King Follet, and in that sermon the following appears:

"The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to. seek after our dead. The Apostle says, 'They without us cannot be made perfect;' for it is necessary that the sealing power should be in our hands, to seal our children and our dead, for the dispensation of the fulness of times. It is necessary that those who have gone before and those who come after, should have salvation, in common with us; and thus hath God made it obligatory upon man. Hence, God said, I will send Elijah the prophet, and he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' etc. I have a declaration to make of the provisions which God hath made to suit the conditions of man, made before the foundations of the world. He made a provision that every spirit in the eternal worlds can be ferreted out and saved. He has wrought out salvation for all men, unless they have committed the sin against the Holy Ghost, and every man who has a friend in the eternal worlds can save him, unless he has committed the unpardonable sin. And now you can see how far he can become a savior."

Again, in the Prophet's last sermon but one, delivered on the 12th Of May, 1844, just about one month previous to his martyrdom he said:

1,605 posted on 05/09/2007 2:53:54 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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To: P-Marlowe; sevenbak; Utah Girl; Saundra Duffy; Delphi
Eternal Progression

Eternal Progressiona-Hinckley, Gordon B.TPThe whole design of the gospel is to lead us, onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 342-62) and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become! (See The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, comp. Clyde J. Williams, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1984, p. 1.) . . .

Eternal Progressiona-Hinckley, Gordon B.TPToday is a part of eternity. . . .

Eternal Progressiona-Hinckley, Gordon B.TPEternal vigilance is the price of eternal development. ("Don't Drop the Ball," Ensign, November 1994, p. 48.)

Eternal Progressiona-Hinckley, Gordon B.TPPeople sometimes ask me, "What is your favorite verse of scripture?" I tell them that I have many, but among these is one for which I feel a particular love. It is found in the fiftieth section of the Doctrine and Covenants and reads as follows: "And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

Eternal Progressiona-Hinckley, Gordon B.TP"That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day" (D&C 50:23-24). I ask you to ponder those words: "That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day." For me, in those few words there is encompassed the marvelous concept of the eternal plan of God in behalf of His sons and daughters whom He loves. That statement speaks of learning. It speaks of the now and the forever. It speaks of growth and development. It is positive and affirmative and wonderful. ("True to the Faith," Salt Lake Valley-Wide Institute Fireside, January 21, 1996.)

(Gordon B. Hinckley, Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1997], 179 - 180.)

1,606 posted on 05/09/2007 2:54:27 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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To: tantiboh
are in line with a tiny fraction of the base - and even the majority of people who agree with you, I think, would hold their noses and vote for Romney if Clinton were the opponent.

Have you seen any of the polls? Seriously. Some say up to 45% will NOT vote for a Mormon. Other more conservative polls say 17%. Mormonism comprises 1- 1.5% of the general population with the majority in just one State.

And I've already said, it will not be the Clinton machine that launches the attack, but it will most certainly profit from it. The attack will come from many different quarters.

Mormonism is goofy to Christians, belief in God is goofy to Athiests, Flip-flopping Easterners are goofy to most of the rest of us. He's done, stick a fork in this candidate already before he damages our party more than he already has done. Suave, silver-tongued, devils are only attractive to drunk, ugly, girls in bars. There aren't that many of those in the Republican party. Hey maybe Romney is running on the wrong ticket. In fact I'm sure of it!

1,607 posted on 05/09/2007 2:54:51 PM PDT by colorcountry (It is wrong to criticize the leaders of the church even if the criticism is true ~Dallin Oaks)
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To: hunter112

“Besides, I can depend heavily on the evangelicals to keep him in check!”

That’s an interesting perspective I hadn’t thought about.


1,608 posted on 05/09/2007 2:56:52 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: Sherman Logan

The fact is Thomas Murphy report was flawed and that is what is being disputed because he tried to pulll a fast one!


1,609 posted on 05/09/2007 2:57:04 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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To: colorcountry

What about that statement bothers you than I will beable to address your point!

What I understand of it I have not trouble with it matter of fact the first time I read the King Follet sermon it rung true than and still does today!


1,610 posted on 05/09/2007 2:59:40 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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To: P-Marlowe

Memories of drstevej my friend!


1,611 posted on 05/09/2007 3:00:41 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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To: P-Marlowe

If I had the cockeyed view you had I too would be.....LOL


1,612 posted on 05/09/2007 3:01:41 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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Comment #1,613 Removed by Moderator

To: DelphiUser; colorcountry

Yea that is ego for ya to take the standing FM tradtion of FM = Freep mail, and make to suit her self former Mormon

.... DU wasn’t there another child of God who fell from heaven because of pride?:)LOL


1,614 posted on 05/09/2007 3:07:05 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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Comment #1,615 Removed by Moderator

To: RECONRICK

Thanks for the info.

The evidence keeps pushing the date for arrival of the Indians in America farther back, with recent estimates of 20,000 BP or even earlier.

The idea that they arrived in the last 3,000 years is a little ridiculous.

If you want to make a bizarre claim, that’s fine with me. I’m willing to look at the evidence for it. But don’t expect me to believe it because I don’t personally have the expertise to poke holes in claims about DNA evidence.


1,616 posted on 05/09/2007 3:10:37 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian.)
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To: P-Marlowe

Well I guess some get hung on planets etc than focusing on the Lord commandment to Keep my Commandments.

here it 20 some years later and some are still are trying to eraes it from their minds!:)


1,617 posted on 05/09/2007 3:11:29 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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To: restornu; DelphiUser
Yea that is ego for ya to take the standing FM tradtion of FM = Freep mail, and make to suit her self former Mormon

LOL!

You left out the next one...it was even better BBL = Believing Bible Lover. I thought it was quite good myself (I said pridefully)

1,618 posted on 05/09/2007 3:14:55 PM PDT by colorcountry (It is wrong to criticize the leaders of the church even if the criticism is true ~Dallin Oaks)
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To: colorcountry

“Of course I am advocating. If I were to write a thesis on this subject, you would be foolish to only look at MY evidence. Just like it is foolish to only look at evidence from the LDS apologists. I am simply asking you to read all material facts. But ultimately you will decide.”

You’re right, of course, CC. The problem is, when we look at the evidence, then decide that we’re right, your response is that we didn’t look at the evidence.

We disagree. We both have reasons that are logical and sound to us. The difference is, I’m perfectly satisfied to let you keep your viewpoint, without trying to knock it out from under you. I’m just asking for the same privilege in return.


1,619 posted on 05/09/2007 3:15:45 PM PDT by tantiboh
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