We can't afford to be a nation of soft targets [VA Tech and Islamic Homiciders]

Newsday ^ | April 19, 2007 | James P. Pinkerton

[2ndDivisionVet]

Our civilization is under attack from a new kind of weapon: the suicide killer. Sometimes these killers explode bombs, sometimes they crash airplanes into buildings, sometimes they go on shooting rampages - as happened at Virginia Tech on Monday. Technology has made each individual potentially more of a menace to society, here and around the world. Not only do people have access to explosives and rapid-firing guns, but the specter of future infernal invention haunts us further. What new methods of mayhem will be concocted? The forces of peace and order are not equipped to deal with oncoming threats. In the United States specifically, presumptions about civil liberties and the right to privacy have greatly constrained our ability to deal with possibly dangerous individuals. On yesterday's "Today" show, Lucinda Roy, a creative writing professor at Virginia Tech, recalled her interaction with Cho Seung-Hui, the mass killer, describing him as "incredibly bizarre . . . one of the most disturbed students I have ever seen." And while authorities seemed alert to the ominous implications of Cho's behavior, they also seemed to have been thwarted from taking any intervening action. At a press conference in Blacksburg, Va., Virginia Tech police chief Wendell Flinchum itemized a string of incidents reaching back two years in which two students had reported Cho as a stalker. And yet, Flinchum and other authorities cited the privacy provisions contained within the federal Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 as the reason they couldn't act more decisively. Did Congress and the president really intend, 11 years ago, to elevate Cho's "right to privacy" to such an absurd level? The police chief said he was having trouble gaining access to records on the previous incidents even now. Even after Cho murdered 32 people.

[Dick Bachert]

I pray there are still enough folks who DO remember what this place was to have been.

My great fear is that our collective, institutional national memory has been terminallyy diluted by the massive influx of illegals who come from oligarchies, dictatorships and other tyrannies.

We have been warned many, many times over the years:

* “Yes, we did produce a near perfect Republic. But will they
keep it? Or, will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the
memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the
path to destruction. Thomas Jefferson (on the free
market/private property system they tried to leave us and the
incredible wealth they knew it would allow us to produce and
what MIGHT happen to us as a result. The familiar vernacular
expression today is “Fat, dumb and happy.”)

“...the natural tendency of things is for government to gain
ground and for liberty to yield...let no more be heard of
confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains
of the Constitution.” Thomas Jefferson

(Contrast this with the reliably reported comment by G.W.Bush that “The Constitution is just a goddamned piece of paper.”)

“...when all government...in little as well as great things,
shall be drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will
render powerless the checks provided of one government on another
and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from
which we separated.” Thomas Jefferson, 1821

” A nation of well informed men, who have been taught to know and
to prize the rights that God has given them cannot be enslaved.
It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins.”
Benjamin Franklin

(And contrast that with this: “We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ...” (President Bill Clinton, USA Today, March 11, 1993, Page 2A)

“Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.” — Judge Learned Hand, 1944

[stevie_d_64]

Texas is a little different than PA...

I’m a big student of carry laws in many states...PA has some fantastic stuff in their law that I’d love to see incorporated into Texas law...I’m sure there are some things that PA would like to have as well...

Signage is a big issue here in Texas...You either post the sign in compliance with the law or it is ignored...But, I’m of the opinion that the intent is clear...I stress folks to not advise (the owners) as to the incorrect nature of their signage...Otherwise why give them the chance to go legal...

Otherwise in the Texas Penal Code, the places we are restricted from entering are actually in the law...And are supposed to be known to the CHL community...

I usually keep up with these issues either at Packing.org or the Handgunlaws website...

PDO has had some issues as to the information on the state laws is a bit dated...

“Handgunlaws” has kept the “chat” out of the website and allowed people to submit data that is reviewed then posted to keep the state info as current as possible...

Bottom line is that I agree with you that any place that wishes to restrict my ability to take my personal protection seriously, and be my own responsibility...I usually bypass with extreme prejudice...

[archy]

We have to have a “fight-back attitude” on a personal level. Somehow, we’ve lost that.

Fifty college students shot, more than thirty dead? Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that it's time for more serious gun laws, ones with real teeth.

From now on, it's time for a really steep fine for anyone who fails to carry an effective defensive weapon, with jail time for repeat offenders. I don't think the death penalty for shirkers would be appropriate, but should a preventable death occur that could have been stopped by armed intervention and through criminal negligence an unarmed citizen was unable to appropriately intervene, yeah, maybe a life sentence or death penalty should apply.

It's a duty and responsibility of citizenship to not only take care of yourself, but to be able to assist another. I don't think that those with religious or other deeply held philosophical scruples against doing should be forced to do something against their beliefs, but there needs to be a way to tell them from the stupid or lazy who've just forgotten or misplaced their basic tool of citizenship. So a reasonably available exemption license should be available for those people once they demonstrate their sincerity, and something temporary for those medically or otherwise temporarily incapable of effectively defending themselves; they can get a license to not carry a weapon in public, as required by law.

The fee for such permits can be used to offset the public cost of protecting those who can't help protect themselves or others, with possible fee waivers for those experiencing simple temporary interruptions in their ability, for medical or other similar reasons.

[Joe Brower]

"Unless we get this figured out, the United States will go the way of Rome..."

Yes. History does repeat itself, and for the reason we all know.

And I see you're a Lobo fan!

[archy]

The bottom line remains the same. If just one person in Norris Hall was armed, the death/casualty rate would probably have been greatly reduced.

Not quite. The murderer attacked victims in four seperate classrooms in Norris Hall; an effective defender would have had to have been in the first room attacked to have *greatly* reduced the toll, and that's where the killer had the greatest element of surprise on his side. More likely: a single armed person in one of the four classrooms would have had a good chance of cutting the toll in half, as the odds would be one in four that he would have been in the first room and thereby would have had a better chance of being warned by the first shots elsewhere or by a witness. But even cutting the toll of dead and wounded by one-fourth would have been an improvement.

Better: had there been an armed student or university staffer in each of the four rooms, it's almost a certainty that Cho would have been less successful by half or three-fourths. Once warned by the first shots, those in other rooms could have taken cover as available and been waiting and ready, instead of trying to hide in adjoining closets or jump out of upper-story windows.

But if every person in that building had been effectively equipped and at least minimally trained, it's most likely Cho would have not completed his atrocity in the first room he attacked. There might be three, even five dead, plus the death of the perpetrator. But it would have ended there.

I wish that old Romanian Jew who had survived the Nazi Transnistria labor camp and had an instructor's grasp of technical and scientific skill had stood in that doorway with whatever effective tool he thought most suitable for his circumstances. Had that been the case, he could have protected his students by doing something more effective than using his body as a sandbag.

[junta]

But this murderer was a twofer a kook and a “minority.” You know the PC types that dealt with him did so with kid gloves for fear of their fat pensions being taken away because of accusations of being an “Imus.”

[Dead Corpse]

And I see you're a Lobo fan!

Yep. Mindless mindlessness can be entertaining. I'm a "Graphic novel" nerd on top of everything else.

Sandman. Lobo. Punisher. V. Watchmen. Wolverine. The Crow. Sin City. 300. I was also a subscriber to Heavy Metal for about a decade.

Lobo's pretty campy compared to everything else, but his unapologetic aggression has its place.

[ExSoldier]

We have to have a “fight-back attitude” on a personal level. Somehow, we’ve lost that. And we also have to be assured that, if we fight back, then we are not going to be attacked by our legal system for defending ourselves.

Either you're sheep, wolf or sheepdog. Me? I'm a sheepdog. I choose to be so. It wasn't always thus, however. It took a serious shock to my system of personal security beliefs to change me. That happened quite early in my life, around age 13. These days, I ONLY HANG WITH SHEEPDOGS and find my company of friends to be quite delightful. As a sheepdog, I'm comfortable in nearly every environment where I can carry my gun. That's like breathing. In my current situation in my classroom where it's a potential VT "Gun Free Shooting Gallery" I have to be more alert which is also second nature but also very cognizant of "field expedient" weapons. This is what was lacking along with your "fight back" attitude.

If somebody enters my classroom right now with a weapon, my first impulse will be to sling first a student desk at them and follow that up with a fast closure to contact and I'll be striking with the intent to kill. But when I walk to the parking lot, no student desks are available. What do I use? A section of newspaper, rolled and under my arm can be swiftly folded in half to provide a suitable striking instrument. Properly used, it is lethal.

My former Aikido sensei once took on a whole pack of "wilding thugs" in New York's Central Park and laid waste to them. They had knives, he was carrying a copy of The Wall Street Journal, rolled up under his arm. When the cops arrived to pick up the "meat" all they found was a overweight, middle aged guy standing inside a heap of bleeding thugs, all prostrate. They failed to see the blood soaked newspaper in a nearby trash can. Blood soaked because when the paper is folded, the crease becomes the striking surface and when folded, little points are created in the paper and that causes some ripping of the skin when applied with force.

A fight back attitude is critical but so are the implements to execute. For most folks, especially as they age...that translates to firearms. Samuel Colt's invention was called it The "Equalizer" for valid reasons.

This attitude is actually advancing as we speak. It's the reason for the wave of laws calling for changes to the so called Castle Doctrine that previously required victims to retreat before using deadly force in self defense on the street and in some cases at home. These new laws (led by my home state of Florida) also usually prevent a liberal prosecutor from bringing charges in a justifiable homicide just for the deterrence effect on the general population in the future. Fear of the public excoriation and the expense of paying an attorney. ALSO, these laws usually prevent the family of a deceased attacker (or the attacker himself if he survives) from mounting a lawsuit. I think this type of law addresses your concerns.

[Badeye]

You overlooked (unintentionally I’m sure) my other comment.

The one about if CCW was in play on the campus, Cho wouldn’t have known who was armed in ANY classroom, and therefore wouldn’t have choosen as he did.

I think that part of my view counters your well thought out post to me.

What do you think?

[Joe Brower]

That's an excellent link, ExSoldier -- you should post that as a separate thread and let me know; I'll then ping the whole RKBA list to it. A classic.

I hear what you're saying about hanging only with sheepdogs, and generally I do, but in both my career and a hobby of mine, I find myself surrounded by scared, angry sheep. And the ideas on field expedients is very worthwhile; I remember one of my first impressions of the lack of student action in their own defense as "nobody could have hurled a chair at this psycho?"

I like to remind people of what kind of damage that can be done simply bare-handed; makes some of them turn white.

The mind is the weapon; the rest is merely tools.

[ridesthemiles]

How much of the privacy part of the Health deal of 1996 was to keep prying eyes out of the cocaine nose of Bill Clinton???????

I would also love to see a complete panel of every possible test on Hitlery. I don’t think she has a clean tox screen, either, IMO.

[ridesthemiles]

We have to have a “fight-back attitude” on a personal level. Somehow, we’ve lost that.

And we also have to be assured that, if we fight back, then we are not going to be attacked by our legal system for defending ourselves. If somebody had shot Cho just as he started out, I bet that person would be in jail right now. We’ve been taught to be passive and we have a legal system that protects the evil and crazy ones among us more than it protects the decent citizens.”

The biggest feeling I get in talking to friends and neighbors is that we are feeling a loss of our safety. In our homes, on the roads with illegal intruders who are illegally driving, in a school, in a sports event, the grocery store, parked at the airport. EVERYWHERE. It is more than pervasive, and I am getting this more and more in conversations. “Where can we be safe anymore” is said more than I would ever have expected.

[archy]

You overlooked (unintentionally I’m sure) my other comment.

The one about if CCW was in play on the campus, Cho wouldn’t have known who was armed in ANY classroom, and therefore wouldn’t have choosen as he did.

Again, it has to be more widespread than just one single armed individual in the building. Cho, of course, was both deranged and irrational, as well as suicidal. He might well have made an attack on whatever easy target he could find even knowing he'd be killed, since he expected to die but did not wish to be thwarted.

That's probably why he picked the School of Engineering building classrooms [with German and French classes taught there as well, odd] though he seemed to harbor no special grudge against technology or engineering; all he was after was a large number of easy targets, with maybe a few specific ones. And his methodology of first shooting the teacher/instructor, then going after the students, means that *just* arming the teachers is not the answer, either.

I think that part of my view counters your well thought out post to me.

What do you think?

Nope. They complement each other; neither negates the other. It's a difficult situation, and any workable answers are likely not short or simple ones.

[archy]

We have to have a “fight-back attitude” on a personal level. Somehow, we’ve lost that.

I'm armed and reasonably well prepared on this anniversary of the Columbine deaths. Are you as well?

[archy]

I had some somewhat similar thoughts that day... And as I was listening to Fox News, I distinctly remember the whining of the news casters, AND that idiot Shepard Smith say the words "twenty year old child." WTF!!!!

Some of the VaTech survivors make more sense than the national newscasters:

Unarmed and vulnerable

Bradford B. Wiles

Wiles, of New Castle, is a graduate student at Virginia Tech.

On Aug. 21 at about 9:20 a.m., my graduate-level class was evacuated from the Squires Student Center. We were interrupted in class and not informed of anything other than the following words: "You need to get out of the building."

Upon exiting the classroom, we were met at the doors leading outside by two armor-clad policemen with fully automatic weapons, plus their side arms. Once outside, there were several more officers with either fully automatic rifles and pump shotguns, and policemen running down the street, pistols drawn.

It was at this time that I realized that I had no viable means of protecting myself.

Please realize that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the commonwealth of Virginia, and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying at school because of Virginia Tech's student policy, which makes possession of a handgun an expellable offense, but not a prosecutable crime.

I had entrusted my safety, and the safety of others to the police. In light of this, there are a few things I wish to point out.

First, I never want to have my safety fully in the hands of anyone else, including the police.

Second, I considered bringing my gun with me to campus, but did not due to the obvious risk of losing my graduate career, which is ridiculous because had I been shot and killed, there would have been no graduate career for me anyway.

Third, and most important, I am trained and able to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere in Virginia and other states that have reciprocity with Virginia, but cannot carry where I spend more time than anywhere else because, somehow, I become a threat to others when I cross from the town of Blacksburg onto Virginia Tech's campus.

Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness.

That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself.

I would also like to point out that when I mentioned to a professor that I would feel safer with my gun, this is what she said to me, "I would feel safer if you had your gun."

The policy that forbids students who are legally licensed to carry in Virginia needs to be changed.

I am qualified and capable of carrying a concealed handgun and urge you to work with me to allow my most basic right of self-defense, and eliminate my entrusting my safety and the safety of my classmates to the government.

This incident makes it clear that it is time that Virginia Tech and the commonwealth of Virginia let me take responsibility for my safety.

link to story

[blackie]

"Most people under age thirty are nothing more than a helpless herd of sad, angry, brainwashed sheep. I hesitate to call them "Americans". Over three decades of easy living and PC, warm and fuzzy, "nothing's worth fighting for" happy-crap, both in the schools and the mass-media, has yielded and expected result."

Roger that, Joe!!

Bravo Zulu!!

[Badeye]

You keep missing my point. No big deal.

[archy]

You keep missing my point. No big deal.

I'm not the one who needed convincing. And I think Cho would have been a lot harder sell than I am, stubborn cuss that I am.

[livius]

Yes, exactly.

I think people should learn about these things and learn that just about anything can be made into a weapon. And there’s always the good old staple, clawing and eye-gouging, if no tool is handy.

I think this should be taught in schools and that kids should know from the time they’re very young how to defend themselves, with or without a gun. And everybody should be fully supported by the law in doing so.

[archy]

Most people under age thirty are nothing more than a helpless herd of sad, angry, brainwashed sheep. I hesitate to call them "Americans". Over three decades of easy living and PC, warm and fuzzy, "nothing's worth fighting for" happy-crap, both in the schools and the mass-media, has yielded and expected result.

You hang around the wrong people under age 30.