"Denier" ... "You're a Denier!"
"Death To Deniers!!"
Posted on 03/24/2007 5:51:38 AM PDT by moneyrunner
Mars, too, appears to be enjoying more mild and balmy temperatures.
In 2005 data from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions revealed that the carbon dioxide "ice caps" near Mars's south pole had been diminishing for three summers in a row.
Habibullo Abdussamatov, head of space research at St. Petersburg's Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in Russia, says the Mars data is evidence that the current global warming on Earth is being caused by changes in the sun.
"The long-term increase in solar irradiance is heating both Earth and Mars," he said.
Solar Cycles
Abdussamatov believes that changes in the sun's heat output can account for almost all the climate changes we see on both planets.
Mars and Earth, for instance, have experienced periodic ice ages throughout their histories.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.nationalgeographic.com ...
But there are certainly plenty of other ways the sun could affect both planets in different ways. One is the cosmic ray changes found in the lab to increase cloud nucleae. The atmosphere on Mars could warm by cosmic rays somehow too, but I have yet to hear any explanation of how that could happen (water vapor is out of the question).
The fact that both earth and mars have glacial cycles is an entirely different effect. On earth it is milankovitch cycles and Mars apparantly has them too. Those are due to changes in the planet (tilt, orbit, etc) not the sun and they are very slow. Powerful, but slow, so they do explain any significant amount of warming except over 1000's of years.
Here’s something for everybody to agree on. There is literally nobody in this debate who knows exactly what the interrelationships are that affect the earth’s climate. The assumption that we can take the latest theory that supports our point of view and apply to it debunk the opposition is neither intellectually honest nor scientific.
I go back to the view from 30,000 feet and try to look at the big picture. Which has the greater energy effect on the earth: the sun or mankind? All you have to do is look at post number 47 to get an idea. Then look at the picture of the earth from space: a blue globe on which mankind in all his pride cannot even be seen.
I applaud people who preserve natural surroundings and who do not despoil natural beauty; who can voluntarily live simple lives. But I have a high level of contempt for those who would be our masters because it’s always “for our own good.” If you value your life and the lives of your children, make that man a pariah.
Hurray! Well stated. The real issue is that all the research money goes to those who promote anthropological impact thus reducing our ability to understand what is really happening. More importantly, the world society is embarking on cure that could be worse than the disease - we just don't know.
check this thread - even NASA is starting to open its eyes to the solar connection.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1806069/posts
I agree and would only add that once politicians get involved to make policy, it is almost always redistributionist and has unintended negative consequences. The last thing we need is to take the uncertain science of global warming and use it to justify certain economic destruction.
read article later
CO2 increases in the atmosphere may have mostly natural explanations, but there is still a manmade component that can be discerned. Read about the Suess effect.
Consider... some freepers actually believe Rudy Giuliani is not a liberal.. i.e. mentally dysfunctional
I'm not so sure that we are in such a one-sided fight. I wrote on that here.
The opposition did not get into gear because the Eco-Left was considered too small a fringe. When they got into power, it's a different thing.
Now even the NY Times is trying to cool Al Gore's jets because they don't want to lose what little shred of credibility they have left. Actually that is a danger, because a dangerous lunatic foaming at the mouth is quickly subdued. A dangerous lunatic who appears rational (see "Silence of the Lambs") is a great danger.
Or get on a sailboat or cruise ship in the Pacific (say Tahiti) and realize that you can sail essentially 5,000 miles in almost any direction and not hit land, or ever see another person most days.
And realize that much of this oceasn is miles deep, and you see how insignificant we really are.
I'm not sure whether their "reconstructions" are more like Mann's hockey stick or something more realistic, but the basic idea is to compare those against the proxies for solar activity (radioisotopes). They did not find much of a correlation and I would expect that result considering that there is no 22 year cycle in measured temperatures (local or global). If the sunspots are an indication of climate change, how come it doesn't show up every 22 years?
I think we do know. Watch the last 12 minutes or so of The Great Global Warming Swindle where they talk about the pressure being put on developing nations such as Africa not to use fossil fuels to generate electricity and how many people die because they must use wood in their hovels to cook etc. It is a tragedy.
But I don’t want us to trap ourselves into the useless battle of competing studies. We are losing the forest by focusing on the trees. Forget about sunspots and gas guzzling SUVs. Assume humans are causing global warming. What are the possible solutions?
- Reduce humans? How?
- Reduce human production of CO2? How?
- What are the secondary effects of these alternatives? How do you know?
The ban on DDT may have saved some eagles, but that same ban killed hundreds of thousands millions of people …
Closer to the truth.
Pay no attention to that other planet behind the curtain!
Why must we "assume" something we know not to be true? Man's arrogance is what drives this assumption. We are such an insignificant part of the world that it is startling to listen to our hubris sometimes. Didn't the pictures from the moon teach us anything? We are but a tiny blip on the scale of things. As the man in the Great Warming Swindle put it, we can, in a sense, see ourselves as in the atmosphere of the sun. What man does or doesn't do matters little.
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