Posted on 03/10/2007 2:45:08 PM PST by FairOpinion
DUBAI, March 10 (Reuters) - An Islamist group called on Germany and Austria on Saturday to withdraw their troops from Afghanistan to prevent attacks against the two countries.
"Why would you (Germany) want all this (economic interests) threatened for the sake of Bush and his band?" the Voice of the Khalifate said in a video posted on an Islamist Web site used by militants, including al Qaeda.
"Isn't it stupid to encourage the mujahideen to launch attacks in your country?"
The speaker pointed out that Austria relied on tourism for an important part of its revenue, adding: "This situation would change if there is a security threat and Austria becomes a country targeted by the mujahideen."
The tape also featured a portion of an old video of al Qaeda's deputy leader Ayman al-Zawahri.
It appeared on the same day, on the same Web site, as a video issued by a little-known militant group in Iraq which said it would kill two hostages, a German woman and her son, in 10 days unless Berlin withdrew its troops from Afghanistan.
Germany opposed the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq but has around 3,000 troops in Afghanistan as part of a NATO force stationed there since U.S.-led troops in 2001 toppled the Taliban, which had harboured al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.
"Austria has no interest in such a war ... which is a war between the Mujahideen and America and whoever aligns itself with it," said the masked speaker on the Arabic-language Khalifate video, which carried German subtitles.
In Vienna, an Austrian Defence Ministry spokesman said his country had just five officers in Afghanistan and was not planning to send more troops. (Additional reporting by Karin Strohecker in Vienna)
Isn't it interesting that the Dems and terrorists always want the same thing?
And shouldn't our Priority #1 be to take back control of Congress from the Democrats and make sure we will NOT have a Dem President?
There IS a connection.
ping
First it was Spain in Iraq. Now it's Germany and Austria in Afganistan. These terror groups are patient, coordinated, and systematic.
"In Vienna, an Austrian Defence Ministry spokesman said his country had just five officers in Afghanistan and was not planning to send more troops."
What a strong answer.......
Germany and Austria don't have any troops in Afghanistan. Just ask any Freeper. They'll tell you Europe has not been involved to this point and the US is going it alone.
It's a long way from the beginning. They worked their magic on Spain and get active every time some Congressman or MSM talking head suggests the US pull out of the ME soon. They were real pleased by the Nov 06 national elections.
Related article:
Kidnapping in Iraq aimed at Germans in Afghanistan
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/10/iraq.kidnapped.germans/
Iraqi militants holding a German woman and her son hostage demanded Saturday that Germany withdraw its troops from Afghanistan to ensure their safety.
The little-known Arrows of Righteousness group posted video on the Internet on Saturday threatening to kill the two in 10 days if Berlin won't comply. In the video, a woman identified as Hannelore Marianne Krause urges German Chancellor Angela Merkel to heed the demands.
A passport with that name is shown in the video. German officials did not confirm the kidnap victims' names or say why they were in Iraq.
"Crisis management officials are working on the case of the hostages" and are in contact with the appropriate government officials and with family members, according to the German Foreign Ministry.
While sitting next to her son, Krause tells Merkel, "These people want to kill my son in front of my eyes, and then they'll kill me, if the German troops did not withdraw from Afghanistan." She and her adult son clutch each other and cry as they speak while three militants, two armed with large assault rifles, stand behind them.
Germany and Austria (among several Europeans) aren't fighting in Afghanistan and only giving alibi-assistance. The Germans go completly coco-nuts because of being asked to provide some aerial assistance in reconnisance missions. No those Freepers telling that US (and a few allies) are going it alone are right. Most "old European" Governments (and therefore alas the people) are cowards and unwilling to fight.
That's no BS. I see your point about the post-WW2 problem with missions abroad... but the "discussions", "controversy" and "outrage" by German politicians of all flavours, because of a non-combat reconnaissance mission were real.
The terrorists know they can play the Germans. Afterall the Germans paid them twice before in Iraq.
My uncle used to have a saying:
"You have not seen war until you have fought the Germans."
Today's Bundeswehr is no less capable or brave.
Sadly, the German politicians don't have the stomach for a fight against Islam. I would love to see the German military unleashed against these Muslim thugs.
Ahhh. Ok. I get it.
Look, I love Donny Rumsfeld. I really do. Honestly and without sarcasm. He has always been a hero of mine and I was upset when he left government.
But as much as I love Rummy, I disagreed with him about the whole 'New Europe/Old Europe' thing. It is a false dichotomy.
There is no such thing as Old Europe and New Europe based upon how Donald Rumsfeld sees things. His comments were a political device to divide Europe. I understood why he made the comment- the strategy behind it etc- but I believe he lacked foresight or intentionally limited his foresight to the next decade or so.
The United Kingdom is a part of Europe. Poland is a part of Europe. Germany is a part of Europe. France is a part of Europe.
If Americans wish to continue to shut themselves off to an understanding of the world, fair enough. But as the time line in which we live proceeds into the future Americans will find that their view of the world is ever more divergent- to the point where it will not be able to understand the motivations of any other nation or people. This will eventually undermine American influence in the developed world.
Europe is an incredibly complex entity. Americans will never be able to understand it as long as they continue to rely upon a handful of worn out stereotypes. Americans will not be able to understand it as long as they remain within their own borders inside Fortress America. The world is not so scary and other people are not so foreign as many Americans seem to believe. But you have to get right out there in the world and immerse yourself for a while in other cultural perspectives before you can learn this.
To say that Germany is not involved in Afghanistan is simply wrong. It's just wrong. And since it's wrong, it's an incredibly stupid thing to say.
What many on this site seem to fail to understand is that Germany has a different view on Afghanistan than on Iraq. This seems to lead to the false conclusion that since Germany did not support the invasion of Iraq they do not support the war on terrorism. This is not true.
My own solution to the war on terror is not supported by most Americans- mainly because they are too faint-hearted or lack the will to do it. My way would work, we have the weapons to accomplish it but many Americans become distinctly European-like (even many Freepers) at the prospect of using nuclear weapons on a wide scale.
Let's talk about what is going on in the world. Our government claimed the Iraqis would embrace democracy. To this point they have been proven wrong. From my own observations and personal dealings with the Muslim mind-set democracy is not going to work in the Middle East. It was worth a try perhaps but it is not going to work. In other words- America was wrong in some of its fundamental assumptions about what was going to happen once we invaded. This means that the arguments we used to try to cajole European nations to join in were also founded on wrong assumptions (this without bringing in the WMD that have never been found). This means that the attitudes many conservatives (including Mr Rumsfeld) have developed about some European nations' abstinence from Iraq are also ill-founded.
Say this out loud to yourself. America was wrong. It helps. It really does. It's almost the same as saying 'I was wrong'. The Iraqis do not seem to want democracy. They seem more bent on killing each other based on their differing interpretations of the Koran, a book written by a camel-jockey a long time ago.
This doesn't mean the Europeans who disagreed with the invasion of Iraq were right but by staying out of the country they avoided the mess we now find ourselves in.
Look around yourself. Al Gore is a national hero. An Oscar winner. Nancy Pelosi is in control of congress. Hillary will be the next president. President Bush is now leaning towards adopting bits and bobs of the Kyoto Protocol. And you want to take issue with Europe in terms of New and Old? LOL. Europe has problems. It has always had problems. It will always have problems. It is, as aforementioned, a very complex entity- an entity too complex for most Americans to truly appreciate. But so what? America is literally going to hell in a handbasket right here and now. Not next decade. Not next year. Right now. Right now.
First, they successfully threaten Spain . Now they begin threats against Austria and Germany. Italy and Portugal will be next. Switzerland will be picked up in Allah's own time.
Call it the beginning of the end of Europe; it'll be rolled up from the South to the North. Europistan is nearly at hand. Just another few years. As for Greece, the Middle Easterners will have a pincers movement with crazies from the East and the West converging on Greece.
If you have relatives in Europe, tell them to get out now if they can.
Prodigal Son,
Since the U.S. is so unsophisticated and clumsy, I guess it should have agreed that there were no WMDs. BTW. when did the UK assert that new truth? Do the Kurds agree that Iraq had no WMDs? Has sarin gas been found in Iraq during the past several years? How many World leaders said, before the U.S. invasion, that Iraq had no WMDs?
Since the U.S. is so unworldly, why do the vast majority of semi-free countries in the world no longer spend a whit on their own defense forces, instead choosing to rely on the U.S. to protect them? BTW, what is Scotland's defense force like?
It's quite easy to throw stones, much more difficult to have to continue dodging stones while also prosecuting a war which other countries lack the stomach to actively support.
It's as plain as it can be! Germany and Austria should quadruple their Forces and issue 'Shoot-to-Kill' orders to all of them!
Come to think about it, so should we ........... FRegards
Absolutely!
Yes.
Which is exactly what I was responding to. It's easy for Americans to throw stones at countries when they don't do as Americans would like them to do. That's what prompted my post (and the fact that I have seen the comment that 'America is going it alone' many times here- which is a completely false).
Scotland doesn't have a defense force. The United Kingdom does have one and it is currently in Afghanistan and Iraq. Many Scottish soldiers are in these places. So don't worry your head about whether there are any bravehearts out there fighting against the terrorists.
It is not me that says America is unsophisticated. I say Americans often lack knowledge about the way other nations do things and about the way other people think. I say Americans will not gain knowledge in these things by staying within their own borders. This is self evident and applies to any area of learning. You will not learn about anatomy without exploring the inner workings of the human (or other animal) body. It's no different for culture.
I say this, many on this forum proclaim our current war to be 'The West versus Islam' and I agree. But what is the point of referring to the 'West' if Americans refuse to take in to account all Western views- and not just the views of the various Western nations/peoples but the 'Whys' behind those views. I say Americans will learn little of the people they would like to have as allies by belittling them publicly and scolding them as if they were children when America is just as prone to folly as any other nation.
Americans do not like to be critisized. Americans do not like to be laughed at. Americans do not like to admit any shortcomings or when they are wrong. But plainly, something has gone afoul in America of late and if conservatives and Americans as a whole are not willing to look both inwards and outwards for a solution then we are screwed.
Who cares about the WMD? Not me. But this is what was used to sell the war and by and large they have not been found. Nobody even talks about them any longer- so much a non-entity have they become. Rationalizing their non-appearance will get us nowhere.
I recall, myself, arguing with liberals and using the same bits of propaganda that the US was using. The Iraqis will welcome us with open arms. Democracy will create a domino effect in the Middle East and will spread like a nice summer garden. We glossed over what would happen after the invasion and how long we would likely be involved in the Middle East. We underestimated how difficult it would be to get the Iraqis to get along with each other.
In the end, this is down to a couple of factors, not least of which is the fact that America is a country with a positive attitude about all it does. We always believe we will succeed- sometimes simply because we are Americans. Fair enough, it is good to be confident and positive, but it can also be a hindrance if it blinds us to pitfalls we may encounter.
A further hindrance to our victory in the Middle East was a failure to appreciate the Muslim mindset and how deeply ingrained their backwardness actually is. Liberal democracy is- seemingly- so alien a concept to them that they may actually never embrace it (not within our lifetimes at least). The failure to appreciate this stems from our own long history of enlightenment and freedom. It is alien to us to imagine a people not wanting these things.
Look at the Middle East. There is no hope of creating a self-sufficient and peaceful Iraq as long as Iran and Syria remain in their present form. This means we must conquer Iran and Syria as well (this said as if we have conquered Iraq already which we have not). Do you see the political and national will in America to invade and conquer those two nations? Honestly, do you? I don't.
So, what are we left with? A big mess in Iraq that the democrats will force us to withdraw from at some point in the not-too-distant future. Are you ready for that? You can get upset at me for naming some of these things. I know many here will simply blame it on the media, the dems and our allies who did not help us. But this is the easy way out. It is a rationalisation.
The nations that opted out of Iraq did so for good reasons- from their own national interests and perspectives. They are not involved in the mess in Iraq and I don't care how you twist it, you can't say they were wrong for not choosing to fall into the same pitfall we are now in. Perhaps we can critisize their total lack of action- this is fair. But we do not currently have a solution for Iraq and if the USA has no solution, why blame lesser nations for also not having a solution? It makes no sense.
One cannot fault the USA for trying to sort things out in the world and trying to make it a better place. But it is not wrong to point out that we obviously made some bad assumptions is it? Defending those bad assumptions to the death is just stupid and will marginalise the conservative voice in America in the future. That those assumptions were bad is plainly obvious except to the most obstinate and stubborn.
I don't see any politician in America at the moment who has any solution in Iraq save surrender- which would be absolute folly.
The problem is not just a few bad men in control in the Middle East- that is a Western way of doing things. We have had experience with this in the past- particularly with Hitler. Remove the bad guy and the enemy becomes a friend. It is no wonder that we assumed this would be the case in Iraq when we have historical success with this example. But the problem in the Islamic world isn't a few bad men making the rest of the people behave badly. The problem is a deep cultural one. It has to do with the absoluteness of their religious beliefs and the failure of these peoples to get caught up in the enlightenment that swept through Europe during the Renaissance (we were backwards at one time as well). The West has a long tradition of challenging religious authority and downright irreverence to any ideas that conflict with personal freedom. Those in the Middle East lack that tradition of thought. They have no heritage of irreverence as we do. They will not be able to take up the banner of democracy as long as they lack this.
No amount of bullets will change this. We have but two choices. Destroy them completely or change them mentally/spiritually/psychologically.
But let's be honest here. Look at any thread on this forum concerning evolution/creationism. Has anybody's mind in those threads ever been changed? Has any creationist ever recanted and suddenly accepted evolution as the explanation to life? No. If it is impossible to convert someone from one's own culture to a different idea, how then do we ever expect to convert the Muslim to the idea that religion is simply a choice- Allah is just a silly belief? We cannot. I wish we could create some meme that would spread like wildfire among the Islamic nations, sparking an enlightenment among those peoples but we know of no such viral idea.
That leaves us with the other solution. We will not choose that because we lack the will.
In the end, we will surrender and leave, if the current mood of the American people and political climate are any indicators.
This is not what we foresaw happening is it? It's not. Therefore, we were wrong in our vision of the future and we chose a course that will not lead to success. I do hope things will change and I will be demonstrated to be wrong. But if I am not wrong, this means that we were wrong and we will continue to make the same mistake again and again unless we add more knowledge of the world to our own national mindset.
Just as none of us will survive long in an unfamiliar climate one does not know and is not prepared to deal with, America cannot hope to set order to and rule the world if it does not understand that which it wishes to command. America, if it wishes to continue being the main player in the world in the future would do well to get out there in that world and for a while view the world and its peoples as those people view themselves and the world in which they live. We will never understand why people differ from us by scolding them for not being more like us. Because it's just not that simple.
The world is not so alien as many might believe but we will never find this out by sitting within our borders and demanding of the rest of the world that they become more like us.
"In the end, we will surrender and leave, if the current mood of the American people and political climate are any indicators."
I think what you mean is that "in the end, the U.S. will be forced to downsize its forces, if the current mood of the American people and political climate are any indicators. (Meanwhile, the Scots will continue to wear kilts, toss rocks at the foolish Americans and continue digesting news reports from the BBC and the Intl. Herald Tribune, which, of course, print only truth."
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