Posted on 02/05/2007 6:19:33 PM PST by JTN
CLEVELAND -- Red-light cameras installed at Cleveland intersections have become controversial.
5 On Your Side chief investigator Duane Pohlman said flashes are oftentimes the only clue the cameras caught cars speeding or running red lights.
Confirmation arrives later as a ticket in the mail, with a $100 fine.
The cameras are triggering key questions before Ohio's highest court.
"We are starting to lose our freedom," one motorist said.
At the very least, motorists said these devices are just plain unfair.
"I think we should get rid of them," another motorist said.
For the past six months, 5 On Your Side has been investigating the red-light cameras and found, from the sophisticated electronics to the system that supports it, the cameras not only can make mistakes -- they do, Pohlman said.
NewsChannel5 spoke with Dave Hatala, a 5 On Your Side videographer.
"Something's wrong with the whole system," Hatala said.
He got a ticket in the mail saying he was speeding on Chester Avenue at East 71st Street. He was cited for going 48 mph in a 35 mph zone.
The only problem is that Hatala insisted he never went that fast
"This was wrong, and I'm willing to fight that," he said.
Along with his ticket, Hatala got pictures showing his van and another car that appeared to be going faster.
"I immediately could see they ticketed the wrong lane," Hatala said. "A car going faster than me that you can clearly see is overtaking me."
Could the ticket be a mistake?
To get answers, Pohlman went to Chris Butler, a math professor at Case Western University.
"If you know the distance and you know the time you can calculate the speed," Butler said.
Hatala brought the measuring device. Butler measured the location using markers from the pictures.
He determined Hatala's real rate of speed.
"Dave Hatala was traveling 40.5 mph," Butler said.
He also found the real speed for that other car, too -- 48 mph.
Hatala brought the findings to court to challenge his ticket.
"Becomes pretty clear that it wasn't your vehicle that was speeding," the judge said.
He didn't have to argue much. Pohlman said the court admitted the ticket was issued to the wrong car, in the wrong lane.
"So based upon the testimony provided we are going to find you not liable for this violation," the judge said.
Pohlman reported a different problem at that same location on Chester Avenue at East 71st Street.
Bill and Sue Faber of Massillon said they haven't been in Cleveland for six months, but the city sent them a ticket.
"No way we could be in Cleveland," Faber said.
"Do you have witnesses for that?" Pohlman asked.
"Yes, we do," Faber said.
Yet Cleveland sent the ticket showing a car speeding, but the plate belongs to the Faber's truck.
Pohlman said you can't read the license in the picture at all. He said it appears Cleveland guessed and sent the ticket anyway.
"I always thought we were always innocent until proven guilty and now I find it's guilty until I can prove I'm innocent," Faber said.
After NewsChannel5 got involved, the city backed off, writing a letter informing the Fabers that the city made a mistake.
"I thought it was ridiculous," Faber said.
NewsChannel5 has received hundreds of e-mails about the red-light cameras and Pohlman continues his investigation at 11 p.m.
But no I do not support having an unmanned camera snapping pictures and citations being issues on that basis."
Get used to it. It's only going to get worse.
Two tickets since ~1988 for no front license plate here. It is worth it. ;)
ping
I won't admit to doing anything like that publicly, but I have a target grade air rifle and I know how to use it.
I also run covers over all of my plates. I know my bike has been photographed more than once, but nothing has every come in the mail.
>>You'd have to be crossing the limit line at the instant the light went to green, and going 30mph in order to do that, which is called "timing" the light, and is every bit as illegal as running the red.<<
You're picking nits.
Meanwhile...
I consider traffic lights to be optional. If they are red, I stop. If traffic is light or non-existant, there is no car in front of me and, most importantly, there are no cops around, I go.
Left turn red arrows don't even deserve stopping unless there is oncoming traffic, there is someone in the crosswalk or there is a cop around. I used to think I was a rebel in this but the last couple of years I've seen a LOT of people do it.
I guess it's catching on.
>>Tell me one other court where a police officer can testify alone ,his word against yours and you are guilty.<<
Good point, but in the case of these tickets, they still have to present the evidence against you. The testimony in some cases mentioned in this thread are picures of a car that is not the persons who received the ticket. If it is not your car, they don't have evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt".
Imagine you saying, officer, my license plate is on my 98 buick but this is a photo of a 2006 Hummer II. And the judge says, "Nope, looks like a buick to me". ;)
Yep. That is the way to do it. People just get used to a longer yellow and push the envelope to match.
'Course, once they figured out what was going on with the delayed green after the light turned red, they'd just push that. I would. But then, I don't run red lights unless it is VERY obvious that nobody is coming.
>>I'd complain but I'm not in the "It's a god given right to do 115 in a 65" group.<<
Why the he!! is it only 65?
>>Pretty soon, they'll get pushed over or pulled down with chains, then they'll start suffering from a combination of old tires and gasoline.<<
Diesel is much safer and more effective.
>>"Timing" involves trying to gague when the light's going to go green so that you do not have to slow down. If you're right, you hit the limit line as the light's changing, if you're wrong, you blow a red light, and possibly cause a wreck.<<
There is an intersection by where I live where (because of how the lights are timed) I am tempted to do this, but I never do for the simple reason that there is a building right up against the intersection. I cannot see if there are any cars coming. It would be nuts to time it, and you still might hit somebody going the other way that tries to run the yellow and t-bone you.
Timing lights only works when you can clearly see if there are any cars coming. You also have to consider oncoming cars taking a left in front of you - and pedestrians. It aint for the faint of heart.
It's also not a moving violation from what I understand. It doesn't go on your record. And I've heard recently that most people never pay them, and they don't go under the same collection rules as unpaid tickets handed out by flesh and blood officers.
IOW, if you don't mind a small and temporary ding against your credit rating, simply ignore them.
Ha! You assume you are gonna get to drive a car at all!
How about a wrist rocket?
MOST people do not go 100 mph on the 101. The limit is 65 and the usual speed pre-cameras was 75 or 80. It still IS 75 or 80, except for that approximately 6-mile stretch of cameras. Which is why their whole safety mantra is so ridiculous.
That's funny, Hildy! I might even try it in the future...
I'm tired of scraping people off steering wheels and I don't want to do it no more.
We are increasing your safety.
Brought to you by the Dept. of Homeland Stupidity.
Resulting in more cynicism and lack of respect for authority. Witness the 55 MPH speed limit and the damage it has done.
BUMP
Actually he was. He was going five miles an hour over the limit. He just wasn't speeding as bad as they said he was originally.
No one should get used to our elected leaders usurping the Constitution. Some things may require some Civil Disobedience on our part to help the nation recover from such gross abuses of power.
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