Are the Right People Becoming Teachers? ( Teachers are NOT Professionals)

EdNews.org ^ | January 9,2007 | Martin Haberman

[wintertime]

(snip)

1. The practitioners know and can do things the public in general cannot do. They have a specialized body of knowledge.

2. The specialized body of knowledge practitioners have takes an extended period of time to learn.

3. The educators who prepare the practitioners are experts who agree upon the specialized body of knowledge practitioners must have.

4. Admission to a professional training program is highly selective.( snip).

6. Only members of the profession set the standards for licensure and certification.

7. The primary responsibility and loyalty of a professional is to serve the client and not simply the institution or governmental agency in which the practitioner may be employed.

8. Neither the public at large nor an employing institution may control the way in which professionals relate to their clients, or the treatments, methods or procedures they use.

9. Neither the public at large nor an employing institution may set the purpose, goals or objectives for the practitioner’s practice with clients.

10. The public at large does not decide how to evaluate professionals.

11. Only members of the profession can determine malpractice and dismiss or disbar practitioners.

12. Professionals determine the cost of their services.

19. Professionals are trained to serve clients with problems. By definition “professionals” do not seek to perform services to clients without problems.

21. Professionals share a code of ethics to which they commit and adhere. They cannot be directed to perform or not perform services for clients which conflict with their professional code.

The case that teaching does not meet any of these twenty one criteria can be readily made.

[wintertime]

You are not only a stereotyping vicious witch, you're a hypocrite to boot. ( Gabz OWN words)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Who is being vicious here? Who is the name-calling "witch"?

Can you spell "hypocrite"?

[perseid 67]

Public schools categorize students and the parents of students to much. If the construction worker had owned a car dealership, that would have been a different conversation.

The categorizing of students in the short run simplifies the life of the teacher.


In the long run, the categorizing of people will lead to pain for everyone.

[No Truce With Kings]

"Their parents then fork over tens of thousands of dollars for these same students to sit in assemblies of 200 to 300 or more."

Actually, I can defend that one. College students are expected to be more mature than HS kids. You know -- in college they are supposed to be there to . . . well, learn. They are not there because their 'rents or the state insists they be there. (Some are, I know, but we are talking the intention of college.)

OK -- you have a prof that knows a subject inside out and gives a lecture. Why not have 300 people listen to that lecture. They are all *supposed* to be mature college students that know enough to attend, take notes, and (if they are confused) write down questions to ask in the recitation sessions.

Those are classes of 20-30 people where you go over the material in the lecture. You (theoretically) develop a rapport with the instructor, get your questions answered and have the type of intellectual exchange that is supposed to be the hallmark of a university.

It is not a bad system when you have students willing to step up to the responsibilities. Of course, HS kids in public schools today really are not taught that kind of responsibility, so they crash and burn in their hundreds. OTOH, that self-study mode is the norm for home-schooled kids, which is one reason they blow the socks off their public school counterparts. It is not that home-schooled kids are smarter -- it is that they know how to study.

[wintertime]

OTOH, that self-study mode is the norm for home-schooled kids, which is one reason they blow the socks off their public school counterparts. It is not that home-schooled kids are smarter -- it is that they know how to study.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Also...colleges have discovered that homeschoolers are very LOW maintenance.

They are less likely to be involved in binge drinking, fraternity assaults and hazing accidents and deaths, have unwed pregnancies, skank around, and many other debilitating behaviors.

[Scotswife]

"Wintertime irritates me more than she does you, since she's supposed to be on my side"

She used to irritate me. Now I find her amusing.

"I don't mean to snap or be defensive... it just frustrates me because this whole "what if the parents are running meth labs" is the new "what about socialization" - a total strawman that is going to be used to beat homeschoolers about the head."

It's only a straw man if I was trying to characterize the homeschool movement based on the example of a very few.
Which I wasn't.
Wintertime is on a mission to demonize all public school teachers - all public schools. There seems to be the assumption that all homeschool situations are pure heaven.
I'm simply pointing out that isn't the case.
And when you bristle at someone pointing out incompetent homeschoolers...then you come to know how good public school teachers feel when they read threads like this.

"In case two, well, honestly the government can take their standards and shove 'em. Sorry. That's me being defensive again :-) "

I'm confused...you don't think there should be standards?
Then how do you know homeschoolers are outperforming their peers?
And are those studies based on a set of standards?

"Study after study shows homeschoolers outperforming their peers everywhere."

I'm not sure what studies you are referring to, but I do know a little about how public school compare themselves with other schools.
It isn't as simple at giving kids of the same age and grade the same test and comparing the results.
Demographics are also figured in as far as average annual income of families in the district - minorities - comparing boys and girls.
For ex: my husbands school is considered rural poor - one of the poorest in the state. For the purposes of following the NCLB law - this school is compared with other rural poor.
It is nice to know however that in our area this "rural poor" school is outperforming most of the neighoring districts and is only being outdone by the wealthiest district.
In other words - it makes perfect sense that the type of parents who would be self sacrificing and loving enough to homeschool would have their children outperform many kids of their own age.
Do your studies compare them with other 2 parent families of similar income brackets?

"Isn't it true of every kid that they have strengths and weaknesses"

Well sure...but one thing that seems to happen is a kid will come into high school from homeschooling.
The parents may feel they have reached their limit in math - and the kids is tested to see where he will best fit in.
Our district is fortunate to have an extremely talented math teacher.
After spending a year with this teacher, the homeschoolers have caught up to their peers in math and are no longer "weak" in this subject.
So...it is POSSIBLE for it to work the other way....that a public school teacher CAN help a kid in a subject better than the parents can.

"When the government schools have 100% success at graduating students who can read, they can come regulate homeschools."

Well surely you know that is never going to happen.
The public schools are required to teach every kid that comes through the door no matter their disability or home life.
Even if a miracle happened and all public school teachers became everything everyone wants them to be - you still aren't going to get that 100% figure.
Honestly - that was a statement I expected out of Wintertime.

It wasn't my point anyway - that homeschoolers should be "regulated" by the public schools.
In time each kid is going to have make it - either in college or the working world, and that will be the true test.

But let me ask you this....when someone claims to be homeschooling, and they really aren't - what is the solution there?
Isn't the kid being neglected?

[Scotswife]

"When the government schools have 100% success at graduating students who can read, they can come regulate homeschools."

In our area it appears that the teachers at the private schools only took the job at that school after interviewing for the public school district and not landing the job.

[RavenATB]

"Like you, I don't understand the need to rip on teaching, as a profession, if you're unhappy with certain teachers out there."

As a former teacher, let me tell you why I think it's so common for teachers to get "ripped" by taxpayers...

Teachers and their union...as empowered by the funding and support of those teachers...protect and insulate corrupt, incompetent, and sometimes criminal teachers from consequence. As long as teachers stand by and allow their union to protect the worst in the group, all teachers will be lumped together in scorn, and rightfully so.

If teachers were, truly "professionals," they would insist on accountability, rather than fighting it at every turn.

That's just not happening. In fact, there is no other profession I've ever known of where the members do so much to protect the worst among their ranks.
Teachers...including "good" teachers...have created this situation for themselves.

[RavenATB]

"When the government schools have 100% success at graduating students who can read, they can come regulate homeschools."

Let me tell you what happens when you tell public school leaders that they can control homeschooling if they can make sure all their graduating students can read...

They lower the standards until they achieve the objective.

[RavenATB]

"In our area it appears that the teachers at the private schools only took the job at that school after interviewing for the public school district and not landing the job."


Your statement is based on "appearance"? I know dozens of private school teachers, and I can only think of who ever even sent a resume to a public school.

[Scotswife]

" Being on FR, I will extend the benefit of doubt to you because there is enough infighting amongst good conservatives to do otherwise. (extends hand of apology and freindship)"

Believe it or not..there are conservatives who are working as teachers and administrators.
In many states they illegally garnish teachers wages for the union whether the teacher chooses to join the union or not.This money is, of course, funnelled by the NEA to many democratic party causes.

Can you imagine the outcry from the MSM if republican managed to pull off a stunt like that?

Anyways...every now and then you will see a teacher in the news trying to fight the illegal appropriation of his/her wages to the NEA.

I think most teachers don't think much about it. You would be surprised how many teachers are not aware of what kind of organization the NEA is.
Blissful ignorance.

[Scotswife]

"In this school district, they receive 100 resumes for every one teacher hired, so they have their pick of the best."

That is the cycle isn't it?
Good district attract the best teaching candidates.
Poor performing schools need better candidates and have a high turnover rate with the good teachers they already have.
Good teachers from poor performing schools jump ship to a high performing school in a heartbeat if they can manage to land the job.
This ensures that the kids who need the most help are instead receiving instruction from the least qualified teachers.

[Scotswife]

"The dark truth, though, is that many parents just don't care. They don't help Johnny with his homework, let alone go to a school board meeting and see what is going on."

Oh come on!!
It's so much MORE FUN to b!tch about people then to actually DO something constructive!

[wintertime]

Believe it or not..there are conservatives who are working as teachers and administrators. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Conservative Government School Defender" is an oxymoron.

You would be surprised how many teachers are not aware of what kind of organization the NEA is. Blissful ignorance.

Well,,,as I have previously stated, those who cooperated with propping up dysfunctional schools are: Stupid, Greedy, or Evil.

It appears that those teachers who do not know what kind of an organization the NEA is fall into the category of stupid.

[Scotswife]

"It is interesting that the go kiss a teacher crowd while demanding absolute worship of teachers are so quick to assume all homeschooling parents are running meth labs. Well, actually, they seem to believe all parents are running meth labs."

If that's what you got from my post...wrong wrong wrong.
First of all... I don't belong to any "go kiss a teacher crowd". I agree there are far too many incompetent teachers protected by tenure.

I never claimed "all" homeschoolers run meth labs.
For cryin' out loud! I agreed that the majority of homeschooling families are doing a great job!!

I was pointing out that not all homeschooling situations are ideal - that there are some incompetent homeschoolers as well, and even some who use "homeschooling" as a cover for abusive or even illegal behavior.

Yes...I do know of a situation where a "homeshooled" kid was being left home alone with the meth lab.

If you're going to criticize someone...take the time to read their post and try to UNDERSTAND their point!

[Scotswife]

"Your statement is based on "appearance"? I know dozens of private school teachers, and I can only think of who ever even sent a resume to a public school."

Ok...poorly worded.
Most of the teachers employed at our local private schools interviewed at the public schools first and were not hired.
It is common for them to jump ship and leave the private school when they find an opening in the local public school district.
It isn't hard to see why...the salaries at the private school are much lower and they don't have benefits.

[Scotswife]

""Conservative Government School Defender" is an oxymoron."

Whether you like it or not...there ARE conservatives trying their best.
They may be in the minority - but they are in the trenches.

"Well,,,as I have previously stated, those who cooperated with propping up dysfunctional schools are: Stupid, Greedy, or Evil."

Ah yes...did you think I had missed your mantra?
And clearly you are enjoying yourself as you ooze your self important arrogance.
All YOU have to do is apply a standard that you know isn't going to happen. You proclaim that tomorrow morning no public school staff should report to work.
You haven't offered up any other solution beyond that.

So...when the inevitable happens - and people report to work anyway, you get to declare them as evildoers.

Well done Wintertime!

"It appears that those teachers who do not know what kind of an organization the NEA is fall into the category of stupid."

Of course you would...that is because you enjoy being cruel.
I would say...apathetic. They never stop to question what the union is doing because most of them aren't union officers themselves. Many don't bother examining the issue because they know their wages are going to be garnished anyway.

[THEUPMAN]

most of them are hard working people who would move Heaven and Earth to help their students. It is the BS, PC stuff that hampers them (and they are just as ticked off about it as you and I).


If this were true then changes would be made.

[LanPB01]

Lady, your persistence in proclaiming your doctorate degree is tiresome. You have a doctorate degree in government? Great. I'm very happy for you. However, I suspect its fair to say a lot of us aren't impressed. So let me be clear - I have a bachelors degree, a masters, and a jurist doctorate. This combination of degrees allows me to teach at the third ranked university (among the 130 or so that have masters level programs) in the south. Yet, somehow, in the years I've posted on Free Republic, not once have I seen the need to loudly proclaim these credentials.

You, on the other hand, have managed to mention you have a doctorate (in a questionable field, mind you) on every thread you've appeared. You've made ridiculous claims as to how your program only accepts the top 1 to 2% of the public intelligence wise, and yet I would confidently place my scores on any standardized test (GRE, LSAT, ACT, whatever) against yours, for the time I've worked in higher education has allowed me to see how lax some standards in doctorate programs truly are.

So, in summation, while you sometimes manage you deliver a good point regarding the failure of government schools, your obnoxious nature and inability to relate to your fellow man tends to reduce your threads to the jokes they become.

[LanPB01]

You'd have to spend some time reading Wintertime's forum posting history to appreciate it. She manages to slip in the fact she's earned a dubious doctorate degree into every thread she appears, appropriate or not. She then uses conversation skills best suited to a toddler to berate those who don't agree with her position.

[SoftballMominVA]

If your school is as wonderful as you say, then you are NOT part of the problem.

Not according to your earlier posts.

It is time to call government schools what they are: CHILD ABUSE! ( Yes! I am shouting.) I have no respect whatsoever for any parent who would subject their child to this. Where are the fathers and why are they allow this?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1643013/posts?page=17#17

and

The government schools can NOT be reformed. They are utterly unredeemable. So...any teacher who agrees to participate in propping up government school dysfunction is part of the problem. Any teacher who continues to go to work every day, and turn the key to open these centers of ignorance is: stupid, greedy, or evil. They are stupid if they think that supporting a price-fixed, monopoly, and compulsory system is amenable to change, or will meet the needs of children. They are greedy if they are propping up the government school system that hurts children just to collect a pay check. Or...they are evil. They are using government schools to push forward their own political, cultural, and religious agenda, and forcing this on innocent children.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1755453/posts?page=68#68

Government schools hurt children. The only way to stop it and to prevent it from ever happening again is to destroy government schools

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1564549/posts?page=25#25

Your views on public schools are well known to me. You have stated that all public (or government) schools are evil and as seen above, unreformable and the teachers that teach are evil, greedy, naive, stupid, or sadistic. So when you paint with that broad of a brush, you include me in on it.

Can I assume from your comment on this thread that you are saying that there are exceptions to the rule? In your opinion are there public schools in this country doing a good job teaching? Or do you still maintain that all public schools are evil?

Thanks for your time. Have a great day! :)