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Embarrassed
January 27, 2007 | AdamSmithWasRight

Posted on 01/26/2007 9:16:25 AM PST by AdamSmithWasRight

As I read the news day in and day out from my perspective of being on the inside looking out, I look at my own home and couldn't be any more embarrassed than I currently am. It has been compounded from 9/11 by constant images and stories in the media about the actions of the Muslim community.

I must admit to myself if I was on the outside looking in I would probably look at myself in the same way so many others do. If all I saw were nihilistic thugs raping, robbing, murdering, and littering the streets of the world with the bodies of innocent people I wouldn't know what else to think of this group of people for religion.

As I now sit inside of the United States I find myself looking at this house in two perspectives. At times from the inside looking out and wanting to escape for this image that has haunts me day in and day out but also at times from the outside looking in. It is these proud patriotic times when religion takes the passenger seat or well I should say, isn't even in the car, that I look at that house and think, "Don't you people get it???"

At moments like this I realize and force myself to accept the reality that the real problem here is the Muslim community itself. It is no longer the fundamentalsits or Al-Qaeda alone, rather the very community itself that has failed to deliver or even show an attempt to remedy this nihilistic ideology within their ranks. As an American but also as a Muslim I would like to convey my most sincere apologies although I know to most this are just empty words in light of the death and injury of so many. For most we have reached a point where apologies and words will do nothing but further agitate the situation. Rather what is needed is action.

It is this which I do recognize and wish deliver, but I realize that I can only do this with help from others. I would hope that the American people, my brothers and sisters, would not so easily give up on the Bush doctrine of changing the face of the middle east where this dangerous threat to world civility and humanity is found. If we hope to find change I believe we can only find it in the overthrowing and or absolute destruction of the very regimes and elements that support this authoritarinism from within their midst. As long as we hold on to the Bush doctrine I honestly believe that we can one day watch the purple fingers of freedom wave from Morocco to Indonesia.

Until that day, if it comes, I apologize my friends and ask you to stick with the President and his vision for a new middle east.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: bush
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To: Nathan Zachary
I actually agree with you on interpretation. I am only saying that those things can be taken without context to mean things that they didn't mean by folks who want to prove that all Jews and Christians are warriors.

The Koran IS very different in its approach. That does not mean however, that moderate Islamic scholars couldn't start to see that same information through another paradigm. It may not be possible...but what else is there?

(And btw, God may have only told the Jews once to destroy another evil tribe...but there sure is a lot of general fighting and mayhem in the Old Testament which has been interpreted in some pretty screwy ways.)
161 posted on 01/26/2007 12:23:53 PM PST by pollyannaish
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To: pollyannaish

Absolutely. I certainly didn't mean to discount your viewpoint at all...unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) a weakness we have IS to turn the other cheek.

I am not a "glass parking lot" person, and I firmly believe that what we are doing right now, expending blood, lives and money in the Middle East, is the right and moral thing to do. We should be proud of it. We could be like the Nazis or Soviets and just go in and flatten the place, but...that is not why we went in there. It is in our best interests to improve their lives and try to break them out of the medieval mode they are stuck in. Then they might not be flying planes into our buildings.

Of course, it all may fail. The people who say Islam is not compatible with democracy may be right. And when a nuclear device goes off in an American city, all bets are off. But I am not willing to be a member of the "Glass Parking Lot" crowd until that point. That means I may be willing to sacrifice huge numbers of American lives to reach that point. My life, or the lives wife or family may be one of those lost. So be it. But I will not be a party to the scorched earth policy until then.


162 posted on 01/26/2007 12:25:27 PM PST by rlmorel (Islamofacism: It is all fun and games until someone puts an eye out. Or chops off a head.)
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To: -=SoylentSquirrel=-
HOWZABOUT:

What is the matter with you sir? The author of this thread appears to be a patriotic conservative American, making an effort to reach out to this community, and your response is childish generalizations in support of a biggoted loser? Apologies are in order. You should be ashamed of yourself.

163 posted on 01/26/2007 12:25:27 PM PST by presidio9 (The worst thing about FR is biggots like ecoil)
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To: AnotherUnixGeek
"...but then there are things in the Bible I'm glad aren't being implemented now too."

WHY do people try to compare the Bible to the koran?? Yes, there was violence in the Bible, in the Old Testament part of the Bible, but these were STORIES about incidents that happened back then. These are NOT DIRECTIVES given to the people to go and kill others, which the koran has. The koran is still in the present, and ORDERS people to go out and destroy - the Bible DOES NOT do that. So, please, knock off the comparisons between the Bible and the koran. Thank you, all.

164 posted on 01/26/2007 12:28:05 PM PST by jackibutterfly
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To: Nathan Zachary; rlmorel; 7thson; AdamSmithWasRight
One final comment and then I'm out of this fight.

Please understand that those of us who are looking for additional options in this fight are not necessarily doing so out of naivete. I think we are well aware of the fight and people like AdamSmithwasright are even more personally aware of what this entails.

Just because there is a disagreement on tactics, does not mean there is a disagreement on goals. That is pretty much what separates us from the Democrats. I can accept disagreement on strategy, questioning of tactics, but once the decisions are made by those in charge, I will support them because I fundamentally support the goal of winning. What shocked me during the SOTU is that the Democrats made clear that they didn't even support the concept of victory.

THAT is the biggest danger of all and we should all be exceptionally concerned about that development. You and I are at least fundamentally on the same page about the necessity and urgency of winning against Muslim extremism...even if we disagree on how to get there, or the chances of moderation within Islam.

Perhaps it is time we back up and work together to just renew our commitment to winning this thing and go from there.
165 posted on 01/26/2007 12:29:08 PM PST by pollyannaish
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To: pollyannaish
"Our only chance of winning this thing is to understand the culture of Islam, support and protect and push forward the moderated viewpoints so we can all live together under some basic live and let live principles."

Good luck abrogating the Koran. I do wish you God's speed on your quest to understand Islam, because clearly you don't.

" it is essential for us to work with Muslims that both respect the constitution AND still hold fundamentally Islamic beliefs."

Muslims can only do one or the other. If they respect "mans laws" then they die hypocrates and burn in hellfire according to their cult.

The Koran cannot be abrogated- that carries a death penalty, just as throwing a gum wrapper on the mosk lawn does, and just as being an apostate (leaving the religion) does. You are either a Muslim, or you are not. DO you know what a "moderate Muslim" really is? It's a uneducated muslim that has never read the koran. There are a lot of them, it's true. That's because Muslims recieve Islam orally, by equally ignorant Imams, in impoverished lands where education is learning to recite the koran by memory in a language they don't even speak (arabic)

The sad thing is, even if these ignorant muslims are shown what the Koran really says, they still choose Islam. The "moderates" become fundamentalists, not extremists. There is no such thing as an extremist muslim, just one who correctly follows and implements its teachings.

166 posted on 01/26/2007 12:29:59 PM PST by Nathan Zachary
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To: 7thson
I just realized I owe you an apology. I started my post in response to you as "Perhaps you should spend some time reading the Old Testament."

That came across as snarky, which is not what I intended it, but certainly how it sounded. You may have already spent a great deal of time reading the OT, and it was an unfair and needlessly confrontational.

I'm sorry.
167 posted on 01/26/2007 12:32:48 PM PST by pollyannaish
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To: rlmorel

Sure. There is no conflict in being an American and a Christian; no point where one would have to make a choice, prioritize. No area where both claim supremacy.


168 posted on 01/26/2007 12:33:39 PM PST by gogeo (Irony is not one of Islam's core competencies (thx Pharmboy))
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To: pollyannaish
"I've read the entire Koran...albeit only once. FWIW."

And???

169 posted on 01/26/2007 12:35:27 PM PST by jackibutterfly
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To: rlmorel

We're pretty much on the same page, I think.

This is tremendously complex, and I cannot fathom what it must be for those who must make the real decisions day in and day out. All I can do is pray for them.

I am in this fight until the end in my own small way. And I am honored to fight along Muslims who are willing to take on their own natural allies in the name of what is good in the face of evil...which is a lot harder than taking on one's enemies.


170 posted on 01/26/2007 12:38:10 PM PST by pollyannaish
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
It is statements like that one that the rest of the world will hold up as evidence that FR is a little more than a gathering place for intolerant bigots.

I think you give him too much credit. I'd just go with total moron.

171 posted on 01/26/2007 12:38:27 PM PST by Ditto
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You cannot be an American and also a muslim. Bravo for American Muslims and for their ability to ignore much of that which is Islam. That which recognizes no separation between religion and politics. That which calls for loyalty to Islamic law, over any “manmade” law, which would include our constitution.
172 posted on 01/26/2007 12:40:51 PM PST by anglian
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To: gogeo

Right. And my point is, there are not many (if any) Christian sects where one must make the choice. Sure, there are some (7th Day Adventists, I think) where you cannot take up arms and kill someone if asked by your government to do so, but you are allowed to serve in other ways and many have honorably done so.

However, there ARE branches of Islam that do bring followers directly in contradiction of the principles of their government, and often at a very basic level too. Not superficial things, either.


173 posted on 01/26/2007 12:43:04 PM PST by rlmorel (Islamofacism: It is all fun and games until someone puts an eye out. Or chops off a head.)
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To: presidio9
As a FReeper, and yet also a DUmmie.....

AS meat and yet also potatoes.....

As an eskimo and yet also, at the same time, a cute lil' Harp Seal....

As Penn, and somehow, at the same time, Teller

Oh, and I apologize; I'm ashamed of myself in that I did not come up with something even more clever and witty. Not like the bar is high though....

174 posted on 01/26/2007 12:44:04 PM PST by -=SoylentSquirrel=- (Recipe for cleaning up Congress: Traitor, tree, rope. Repeat 200 times.)
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To: Nathan Zachary
The gentleman who started this thread, along with others who have fought courageously, have suggested there may be hope. You know, it strikes me as kind of funny that is was the ignorant Christians who didn't really know what the Bible said because they only heard it orally from their Church leaders who moderated Christianity.

It was the common people, not the "informed elite" that changed the way Christianity was practiced.

Neither one of us is going to convince the other. You will continue to be convinced that I am naive, and I will continue to be convinced you are needlessly pessimistic, so we need to just leave it at that.

But I would like a straight up yes or no answer to my original question so I clearly understand your position: Is your preferred policy kill or convert? And if your answer is no, what is your proposed solution?
175 posted on 01/26/2007 12:44:28 PM PST by pollyannaish
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To: jackibutterfly

What did you want to know? I'm still a Christian if that makes any difference.


176 posted on 01/26/2007 12:45:40 PM PST by pollyannaish
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To: pollyannaish

You said you read the koran; I just figured you'd elaborate a little, such as, did you have an opinion; what is your point, etc. I know you were responding to another poster, but, I was just curious. Thanks.


177 posted on 01/26/2007 12:49:20 PM PST by jackibutterfly
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"muslim light" They should call them something else. Mohammad calls them hypocrits.


178 posted on 01/26/2007 12:49:33 PM PST by anglian
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To: rlmorel

My point is that citizenship of a country is separate from religious beliefs. Perhaps Muslims are religious hypocrites, or not wholly fulfilling their religious obligations, but it doesn't negate their American citizenship.


179 posted on 01/26/2007 12:51:44 PM PST by jcb1379
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To: rlmorel
The key question is: Can a Muslim be secular and still be considered a muslim?

From what I can tell, to the islamofacists, the answer to that is no...and if the answer is no, your fate is WORSE than being a Christian or a Jew.

There are folks posting here who call themselves Christians who will tell you that Catholics are not really Christians and do little to hid their hate for them.

I guess the only real difference is that those folks aren't going around chopping off heads, killing whole families or blowing up Catholic churches so it doesn't take much in the way of courage to tell them they are nut cases.

For a Muslim to speak out against the Islamonazi crazies is an act of courage and I wonder how many here would have the guts to do it knowing their and their children's lives may be at risk for doing so.

180 posted on 01/26/2007 12:55:55 PM PST by Ditto
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