Point very well taken.
The darkest periods of mankind's history continue repeating, horrific lessons not learned or denied.
Posted on 01/01/2007 4:25:08 PM PST by yochanan
Why do evangelicals support Israel so strongly? Is the American Jews' fear of fundamentalist Christianity based on constitutional principle, or social and cultural snobbery and political partisanship?
A Match Made in Heaven is a funny, readable, book. It is the most entertaining way to struggle with questions such as "Why do evangelicals support Israel so strongly? Is their philo-Semitism just a front for their true purpose to convert Jews? Do the evangelicals, as their opponents charge, really want to use the Jews as cannon fodder at the battle of Armageddon? Or are they simply responding to the biblical commandment to love Israel? Finally, is the American Jews' fear of fundamentalist Christianity based on constitutional principle, or social and cultural snobbery and political partisanship?"
We will discuss these questions this week, and readers, as usual, can send their questions to rosnersdomain@haaretz.co.il.
How do America's Orthodox Jews relate to Zionist Evangelicals?
Joe Feld
Paradoxically, Orthodox Jews have the fewest problems with a Jewish-Evangelical relationship.
For one thing, a lot of Orthodox Jews and Evangelicals share conservative social and political positions. Orthodox Jews, for example, are rarely troubled by church-state separation issues. They send their own kids to parochial schools; they're glad to get government money via faith based programs; many are opposed to abortion, and they tend not to be too concerned about the good opinion of the "international community" - ie, Europeans.
Most Orthodox Jews also have a stronger connection to, and concern about, Israel than the secular or liberal majority. Orthodox Jews are more likely to care about a candidates' position on Israel. As a Democratic activist told me, if Cynthia McKinney ran for President as a Democrat, she'd get fifty percent of the Jewish vote.
Some Orthodox Jews are opposed to any
(Excerpt) Read more at haaretz.com ...
You evidently missed my point. Which was, the Left Behind series is fiction, as in based upon lies. It is "great" only in the sense that it is a great big lie. The whole notion of "rapture" and all that other dispensational junk is a great "fiction."
BTW, only the most egregiously ignorant Bible student would maintain the notion that God gives a rip about one's ethnicity, Jewish or otherwise.
bump.
Both Jews and Gentiles need Christ to get to heaven, whether or not they have Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob's genes flowing in them.
Keep it up. Maybe if enough people speak up we can stop all this "rapture" junk that is being spewed by the false prophets. Christians need to read God's Word, not the Left Behind books, not listen to false preachers but only to God. They should read Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 where Jesus Himself teaches us what to expect in end times and it's not to catch the next flight out.
Ping!
If you are going to be raptured out in the middle of the seven year period and 3 1/2 years before Armaggedon, then why does the verse you quoted say those who are still alive are going to be caught up and meet the Lord in the air? I thought Jesus was coming at the END of the 7 years of Tribulation? The scriptures can mean a lot of things. First century Christians expected Christ return within their livetimes because he was quoted as saying some of you wont taste death before I return.
I'm not saying you are wrong. I dont know. However, there was another covenant with God prior to the one with the Jews and that was with Adam. Adam and Eve broke that by eating the apple and were expelled from the Garden. One could take that the covenant with the Christians is much more difficult to break because its based on belief in Christ and accepting his gift of salvation rather than on specific works as with Adam and the Jews.
Point very well taken.
The darkest periods of mankind's history continue repeating, horrific lessons not learned or denied.
Actually, He was quoted as saying to Peter (about an unnamed disciple, assumed to be John)
John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
In other words (IMO), mind your own business and worry about yourself. :) He was also quoted as saying
Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
There he meant Peter, James and John, who about a week later accompanied Him to the mount and saw Him glorified with Moses and Elijah.
I think the first century Christians thought Jesus would return in their lifetime because 1) they couldn't imagine that it would be so very long as 2000+ years before He came back again, and 2) their persecution became as such that they feared they were approaching the Day of the Lord, horrifically described in the Tanakh and reiterated by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.
I agree with you on the rapture, by the way - there's no hidden secret rapture of believers before the tribulation. We are never said to be spared tribulation in this world; quite the contrary - Jesus promised we would have it (John 16:33), but we will be preserved through His wrath, which happens at His second coming, and THEN we will meet Him in the air as He returns to set it all to right again.
It seems to me that largely it's this business of separating God's people into two groups. There is only one chosen people, and we as Christians are grafted into THEIR tree, and their blindness is for OUR sake. I'm convinced that one day we will laugh and cry over our silly interpretations, for the magnitude of God's plan is far more amazing that we can ever fully grasp on this earth. As Paul said at the end of Romans 11 -
"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."
There are actually three schools of thought on when the Rapture will occur. One school of thought says that the Rapture will occur at the mid-point of the tribulation which is the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Those who adhere to this view point to passages such as 2 Thess. 2:1-4:
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."
There is another school of thought that says it will occur before the tribulation begins. The third school of thought hold the view that the Rapture will occur just prior to Armageddon, with the saints returning with Jesus as He fights on behalf of Israel. I don't have time to go through all of the supporting Scriptures for each, and I don't claim to know when the Rapture will occur. I just know it will occur, and I want to be ready when He comes.
This statement reveals a gross misunderstanding of who Jesus is. Yes, Jesus was a man, born of a woman, but he was also God incarnate. We don't worship the man - we worship Immanuel, "God with us".
Jesus was a Jew, born under the Law, and He fulfilled the Law of Moses by being the ultimate sacrifice for sins. Because He fulfilled the Law, we are no longer bound by the Law, but are under grace. To continue to attempt to live according to the Law and be justified by the Law would be to reject the sacrifice Chist made to free us from the Law.
Their regathering at this time was prophesied, and while they'll go through some tough times yet, they're not going anywhere as a nation.
Reading Calvin is the last thing I would do. Why should I read the writings of a raving heretic?
The Jews lost their exclusive claim to the Covenant when they rejected Christ.
The Church will be 'part of the tribulation' in that it will return with Jesus a little less than 7 years after the beginning of the tribulation (actually a little less than 3 1/2 years after the Antichrist goes to Jersulem, to the temple, and proclaims himself to be God.
Please remember that the wages of sin is death. That does not exclude Peter and Paul. But also remember that the dispensation of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is Gods' judgement poured out on the world. God is judging the world. The Church has gone to the 'wedding supper'. (Remember Paul told us he would reveal the mystery of the second coming, that there would be one generation who would never know death and that Jesus would return with hi saints at the end of the tribulation. Please remember also that there has never been a person who "earned" salvation. If that could be the case, then there would have been no reason for the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Are you making the point that the Church is covered by Christ and so will not be part of the tribulation? If that is the case why were Peter and Paul both martyred? Would they not have earned coverage? What about all the other martyred Christians
The term rapture is not found in the Bible. But we use the term rapture to describe IThessalonians 4:15-17..But I would not have you to be ignorant, bretheren, concerning them whch are asleep (dead) that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him, For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with as shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The above paragraph simply is distilled to the term rapture, but many feel better to use the entire quote. The term "Rapture" means simply to be snatched away, or to be caught up and taken away.
What are the consequences for the person who is wrong in this debate? For the non rapture believer-POOF you're with Christ and Halleluiah. For the rapture believer they are constantly looking for Christ to not only deliver them, but remove them from the different tribulations. Never giving thought to preparing their hearts for the onslaught thats going to attack their faith.
The debate regarding pre or post trib or mid-tribulation rapture do not determine the eternal destiny of the soul. Those who know Jesus and his death, burial and resurrection and belief on Him as their savior are saved.
Christ knew what awaited him at the cross. If God chooses to remove me from whats to come, wonderful. But, my saviour faced unbelievable agony. Should I expect any less for myself?
You should know, that no matter how much you would suffer you could not attain salvation. You have offended infinite justice and an infinite penalty is required to satisfy that offence. You and I cannot provide recompense. But Jesus, who is God, who became a man, who was perfect in all of his ways, stepped in and loved you in spite of yourself (myself) that he died in your step. If there was another way to salvation, then God made a terrile mistake sending his son to the Cross to die. We could have all just worked it out ourselves. But that was not possible. The only way was through the suffering, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. It is finished. Accept that and be joyful that he loves you, in spite of who and what we are, simple, unworthy sinners. But he loves us because of who He is.
As you know, in this world it shall rain on the just and the unjust. I do not know why there is such suffering, except that sin entered the world and is part of the worlds corruption.
Same here.
I attend an AOG church, and I know of no such restriction or advice given to pastors on teaching about end-times. Our pastor does teach on the Rapture and on the tribulation, though he is careful not to claim that any view (pre-trib, mid trib or post-trib) is the "correct" one.
It's an issue well worth looking into. Consider Romans 11 (quoted already in responses to you) as well as
Jeremiah 31:35-37, "Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD."
Jeremiah 33:19-22, "And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me."
There are dozens of places where God promises regathering and restoration to His people Israel. Jesus Himself said that He came not to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfill them, and that not one jot or tittle would pass away until all was fulfilled. Pretty strong statements about existing scripture of His day (the Tanakh/Old Testament), most of which was all about God's very specific restoration promises.
I have seen all of those at AOG. I have also heard several different teachings. That just tells me that the local pastor may or may not be up to the task of teaching Revelations.
And that was posted on the AOG website a few years ago, when I was researching bylaws and Statement of Faith issues. It has since been changed.
I think the issue is not so much "is there a rapture" as "when will it occur." Most Christians believe Jesus will call his children home when he returns. However, whether this will happen before the end time tribulations or at the end when Jesus returns to defeat the Anti-Christ and reclaim his kingdom. Many premillinialists believe in the pre-trib rapture (as described in the Left Behind story). I personally find nothing in the bible which convinces me of a pre-trib rapture. However, a lot of people I respect believe in the pre-trib rapture so I don't dismiss it out of hand. I'm not to proud to say I just don't know.
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