Posted on 12/22/2006 4:49:54 PM PST by lowbridge
Bush's most egregious failing has been his belief that Iraq could somehow be conducted contrary to the entire history of warfare, and that we could win over an intractable enemy (both Islamics & the MSM) via some ridiculous hearts&minds campaign.
Even an introspective professor from Princeton knew that once a war was on, the gloves came off. In some ways Wilson was more extreme than Roosevelt. Bush has led this effort much the same way he has lived his life: go along to get along.
I think letting the Dems take control might turn out to be a good thing. Now that they're in charge, it's they who are essentially responsible for victory. That's why we're seeing movement about increasing troop strength.
The real telling sign is if we revise the rules of engagement. If our guys get a green-light, we might actually still win this thing.
BUMP
I agree. But I think the real problem is that so many Americans think they are informed because they read newspapers and news magazines, and follow events on tv. So many were educated by the Liberal establishment of educators that few even question what they get from the media.
We need more educated Americans. At least some who have been exposed to both sides of the political spectrum.
Until we get Americans who are educated instead of indoctrinated with Leftist ideas, I don't know how we can continue to prosper.
I dont either. I am worried.
America's Wars: U.S. Casualties and Veterans
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004615.html
American Revolution (1775–1783)
Total servicemembers 217,000
Battle deaths 4,435
Nonmortal woundings 6,188
War of 1812 (1812–1815)
Total servicemembers 286,730
Battle deaths 2,260
Nonmortal woundings 4,505
Indian Wars (approx. 1817–1898)
Total servicemembers 106,0001
Battle deaths 1,0001
Mexican War (1846–1848)
Total servicemembers 78,718
Battle deaths 1,733
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 11,550
Nonmortal woundings 4,152
Civil War (1861–1865)
Total servicemembers (Union) 2,213,363
Battle deaths (Union) 140,414
Other deaths in service (nontheater) (Union) 224,097
Nonmortal woundings (Union) 281,881
Total servicemembers (Conf.) 1,050,000
Battle deaths (Conf.) 74,524
Other deaths in service (nontheater) (Conf.) 59,2972
Nonmortal woundings (Conf.) unknown
Spanish-American War (1898–1902)
Total servicemembers 306,760
Battle deaths 385
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 2,061
Nonmortal woundings 1,662
World War I (1917–1918)3
Total servicemembers 4,734,991
Battle deaths 53,402
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 63,114
Nonmortal woundings 204,002
Living veterans fewer than 500
World War II (1940–1945)3
Total servicemembers 16,112,566
Battle deaths 291,557
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 113,842
Nonmortal woundings 671,846
Living veterans 4,762,0001
Korean War (1950–1953)
Total servicemembers 5,720,000
Serving in-theater 1,789,000
Battle deaths 33,741
Other deaths in service (theater) 2,827
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 17,730
Nonmortal woundings 103,284
Living veterans 3,734,0001
Vietnam War (1964–1975)
Total servicemembers 8,744,000
Serving in-theater 3,403,000
Battle deaths 47,410
Other deaths in service (theater) 10,789
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 32,000
Nonmortal woundings 153,303
Living veterans 8,295,0001
Gulf War (1990–1991)
Total servicemembers 2,225,000
Serving in-theater 665,476
Battle deaths 147
Other deaths in service (theater) 382
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 1,565
Nonmortal woundings 467
Living veterans 1,852,0001
America's Wars Total
Military service during war 42,348,460
Battle deaths 651,008
Other deaths in service (theater) 13,998
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 525,256
Nonmortal woundings 1,431,290
Living war veterans 17,578,5004
Living veterans 25,038,459
1. Veterans Administration estimate as of Sept. 30, 2002.
2. Estimated figure. Does not include 26,000–31,000 who died in Union prisons.
3. Years of U.S. involvement in war.
4. Approximately 1,065,000 veterans had service in multiple conflicts. They are counted under each conflict, but only once in the total.
Source: Department of Defense and Veterans Administration.
The media are a form of mob rule. The Founders warned us about this. We are living in the exact scenario they warned about.
No flame taken, Valin. Pondering...lost...trying to find an answer.
Neither Wilson nor FDR had to worry about:
- The ACLU
- out of control trial lawyers
- The diversity and tolerance mentality run amok
- a significant fraction of affluent intellectuals who are anti American globalists to the bone
If Bush tried to do what they did, he'd be impeached. Wrongly impeached, but impeached nonetheless.
This is a full blown Constitutional crisis, but few are willing to admit it yet.
Yep .. that was how I took that discussion when I saw it
Though I'm not surprised many in the media think that way .. I was surprised she actually admitted to it on TV
We play a vital role in this war, that of getting the truth out. Talking to family friends co-workers is just as important as what our soldiers are doing (not as dangerous but as important). The only way America and our allies lose this war is if the public turns against it.
It's like watching a train wreck in the process of happening and there is not a damn thing we can do to stop it
We were starting to have an edge and a handle on dealing with this problem .. but after the November elections that edge is gone
The Sedition Act made sure of it...
I don't think we are there yet .. but I will admit we are spiraling down that way
Well, I'm trying to educate as many as I can. Even if I can get just a few to question their biases, I think it's some help.
But I think the biggest problem is our educational system, and I know people who are in it (teachers and administrators), and they can't do much.
It will take a lot of us rebelling to make a difference. I'm not the leader who can do it, but I'll sure support one who will try.
Not much help, but do you have better suggestions?
If one wishes to adopt the outlook of the contemporary critics of the Iraq enterprise, than World War II could have been characterized as an endless quagmire that we could never win. Relatively few people are aware that the strategic bombing campaign in 1943 nearly ground to a halt when the deep penetration raids into Germany were called off after the staggering heavy bomber losses of the Schweinfurt and Regensberg missions. (So brilliantly characterized in the great World War II movie "12 o'clock High") No one was whining loudly and publicly about the fact that the self defending bomber formation concept was flawed and had revealed itself to be so by not having a long-range fighter escort ready at the time. We are so used to the Air Force sustaining almost no casualties in current day operations that we often forget that the 8th Air Force based in England suffered more dead (26,000) than the entire Marine Corps did in World War II (less than 20,000) There were no loudly public howls of quagmire, quagmire we can't win this.
How about the night naval battle off Savo Island, Guadalcanal in August of 1942 in which the United States Navy, defeated by a Japanese navy far better versed in night fighting tactics, sailed away and left 16,000 Marines stranded on Guadalcanal and Tulagi with no immediate hope of resupply? There weren't any howls of quagmire, quagmire we can't win.
How about the slaughter off the Eastern Seaboard of the United States in 1942 in which the U-boats of the German Kreigsmarine during Operation Drumbeat sunk 500 allied merchant and navy ships in a six-month period in the greatest naval disaster in United States history? There was an almost incomprehensible failure to develop an efficient convoy escort system despite the lessons of World War I. Again no howls of quagmire, quagmire we can't win, let's make the Secretary of War and Chief of Naval Operations resign.
How about the Kasserine pass in Tunisia in February of 1943? The tough panzergrenadiers of Rommel's Afrika Corps soundly defeated and routed green American troops, sending them into pell mell retreat. Again no howls of quagmire, quagmire these Germans are just too battle hardened and ruthless to beat. Or the failure to prevent the escape of 40,000 Axis troops across the Straits of Messina after the invasion of Sicily was sucsesfully concluded.
Relatively little is known of the bloody check inflicted on units of the 1st, 4th, 28th, and 9th infantry divisions by the Germans during the battle of Huertegen Forest during Sep- Nov of 1944 as a prelude to the Battle of the Bulge. The men of these units were attrited horribly in one the most soul destroying campaigns in American history, comparable to the Wilderness and Cold Harbor campaigns of the Civil War. Ernest Hemingway called it "Passchendale with tree bursts." Or the Battle of the Bulge's disastrous opening on the Schnee Eifel in Belgium where intelligence failures allowed a totally surprised American Army to lose to captivity two whole infantry regiments of the 106th infantry division in the opening rounds of the battle? Again no howls of quagmire, quagmire we just can't win.
Or how about the defeat inflicted on the allies during Operation Market Garden (a Bridge Too Far) in 1944 when everyone knew that the Germans were already beaten? Or the horrendous losses off Okinawa? Or the failure to ensure sufficient numbers of tracked landing craft at Tarawa due to a misinterpretation of the meteorological conditions affecting the tides around Betio atoll? Nearly 1,000 Marines died in a 76 hour battle for an atoll smaller than Manhattan's Central Park, many because they had to wade hundreds of yards to shore from Betio's lagoon after their landing craft hung up on the reef. Or the largely unnecessary Pelielu campaign in which 1,800 were killed and 8,500 wounded? Or the bloody repulse at Italy’s Rapido River in January of 1944, or the grinding stalemate at Anzio or the entire checkmated Italian campaign, hopelessly bogged down in the Liri Valley before Monte Cassino? Even though the Rapido River attack generated enormous controversy, culminating in a congressional inquiry, it did not commence until the war was over. Or, due to logistical failures, the inability to maintain the pressure on a retreating German Army, shattered in Normandy, which allowed it to refit and regroup behind the Westwall, lengthening the war and costing thousands of lives. Again no howls of quagmire, quagmire we can't win.
We often forget that World War II was no unrelieved string of victories until the final triumph. We often suffered defeat on the battlefield, sometimes catastrophic ones, but we prevailed because we knew that we had to, since the alternative to victory was just too bitter to contemplate. In 1944, after the Tarawa bloodbath was over, there was a great dispute over whether or not to show the gruesome color film shot by combat cameramen of dead Marines floating in the lagoon of Betio, their bloated, rapidly decomposing corpses turning black in the hot equatorial sun and piled in ragged heaps on the beach. It was feared that the hideous sights would damage home front morale too much. The decision was made by President Roosevelt to release the film and trust that this would impress upon the public the gravity of the maelstrom that their sons were being flung into. The decision was correct. War bond sales skyrocketed after the release of the film, and war production soared as the American people realized that their support for the war effort would help to return their men with victory in hand that much sooner. While our forces in Iraq embody the same sort of heroism and devotion to duty as their predecessors, I wonder if the present day home front is made up of the same stern stuff as its antecedent. I certainly hope so and time will tell.
America’s fighting forces of World War II responded to the above described setbacks with a mix of determination, grim courage, innovation, and a uniquely American quality that historian Victor Davis Hanson terms as “Civic Militarism.” This can be characterized as a combination of virtues possessed by soldiers of those societies that inculcate their armies with the sense that their positive military contributions are derived from a sense of participatory citizenship.
Nothing even remotely resembling any of these historical disasters of World War II has occurred in Iraq, but these infantile naysayers who try to pose the situation has an absolute defeat are either hopelessly naïve or determined to demoralize our soldiers and willfully undermine this effort. Despite the setbacks that have occurred in Iraq, there is nothing that is presently amiss there that cannot be remedied to this country's favor.
Our magnificent soldiers, sailors and airmen still have more tough work to do which will undoubtedly be done with the same mix of courage, humanitarianism, innovation, and competence that has characterized our effort in Iraq to date, Abu Ghraib notwithstanding. But when you compare this effort to that other great effort of World War II that we are presently commemorating, this one looks to be comparatively well in hand. All this was accomplished at almost no cost in strictly military terms, and yes, I am aware that the brutal calculus of war is soulless and necessarily heedless of the irreplaceability of precious individual human beings. But we must also realize that wars in the national interest, as I believe this one to be, require that we be prepared to accept this as a condition of our national security.
Again, I wish to express my undying gratitude to a generation of Americans who showed us how to prevail in a REAL quagmire. And to the Americans who are now getting it done and overcoming the quags in the mire despite those who say they can't or shouldn't. As the ever brilliant Mark Steyn said best in his 30 May Sun-Times column:
“But that's the difference between then and now: the loss of proportion. They had victims galore back in 1863, but they weren't a victim culture. They had a lot of crummy decisions and bureaucratic screwups worth re-examining, but they weren't a nation that prioritized retroactive pseudo-legalistic self-flagellating vaudeville over all else. They had hellish setbacks but they didn't lose sight of the forest in order to obsess week after week on one tiny twig of one weedy little tree. “
“There is something not just ridiculous but unbecoming about a hyperpower 300 million strong whose elites -- from the deranged former vice president down -- want the outcome of a war, and the fate of a nation, to hinge on one freaky jailhouse; elites who are willing to pay any price, bear any burden, as long as it's pain-free, squeaky clean and over in a week. The sheer silliness dishonors the memory of all those we're supposed to be remembering this Memorial Day.”
“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. - John Stuart Mill” ~ (1868)
Re-instate the sedition act for one thing. Arrest and shoot those "giving aid and comfort to the enemy", for another.Put on public trial and execute those who commit treason by releasing top secret information in time of war. Just a few ideas that enabled us to perservere and, eventually, win WW2.
All we can do, is what we can do.
Not everyone obsess on this like some of us do.
The other day I walked into work and the guy I relieved said "WOW Steve's got a new book on the war! That's something you don't see everyday." :-)
I like to print out good articles and leave them laying around for some unsuspecting person to pick up.
People who know me know I obsess on this subject, so often someone will come up and ask what about (incert a subject here)?
We did that in WWII? Source please.
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