Remains of Apostle Paul May Have Been Found

Associated Press (excerpt) ^ | December 6, 2006

[HAL9000]

Excerpt -

ROME (AP) - Vatican archaeologists have unearthed a sarcophagus believed to contain the remains of the Apostle Paul that had been buried beneath Rome's second largest basilica.

The sarcophagus, which dates back to at least A.D. 390, has been the subject of an extended excavation that began in 2002 and was completed last month, the project's head said this week.

~ snip ~

[seowulf]

I'd have to say I agree with C. S. Lewis when he said, "You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body." Therefore, I really never cared much about what happened to this body. What scriptural evidence do you have that would lend us to believe that we're stuck with this thing for an eternity?

That is classic Stoicism. Epictetus said, "I am but a poor soul, burdened with a lifeless body."

[Revolting cat!]

I'm talkin' like a holy-roller

Not yet, no apologies necessary. There is room and place for everything and we (I, at least) often misjudge the two. (Speaking as a born again class clown from the last row in the classroom. Which, in the end, is probably no better than a holy-roller.)

[paulat]

Why not?. Is she your God?...

No, hosepipe...it is a Catholic belief that Mary ascended into Heaven, just like her Son. The belief is that she was the only totally pure human being.

The Catholic church celebrates the Feast of the Assumption.

Google has a lot of information.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Oh, Peter's been found: here's a pretty good account of what you'll see and hear if you go to see the scavi (excavations) under St. Peters, built over Constantine's original basilica, built over a cemetery, on top of a monument, over the catacomb in which was the sarcophagus containing the bones was found... (yes, layer upon layer, century on century, so that going down through layers of masonry rubble is like going backward in time)...fascinating.

[alnick]

stuck with this thing for an eternity

That gave me a chuckle. Thanks.

[paulat]

Speaking as a born again class clown from the last row in the classroom.

...so, you were the guy sitting next to the girl-class-clown.

...I never learned your name, but you were right next to me!

[khnyny]

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya2.htm

The nature of Mary's grace at the Immaculate Conception

In Lk 1:28 the archangel hails her as, "full of grace". Most versions today do not use that rendering, but greatly weaken it. Yet it is the correct translation as we can see from the Magisterium (Pius XII, Fulgens Corona, AAS 45, 579, and constant use of the Church) and also from philology.

For the Greek word in the Gospel is kecharitomene. It is a perfect passive participle of the verb charitoo. A perfect passive participle is very strong. In addition, charitoo belongs to a group of verbs ending in omicron omega. They have in common that they mean to put a person or thing into the state indicated by the root. Thus leukos means white, so leukoo means to make white. Then charitoo should mean to put into charis. That word charis can mean either favor or grace. But if we translate by favor, we must keep firmly in mind that favor must not mean merely that God, as it were, sits there and smiles at someone, without giving anything. That would be Pelagian: salvation possible without grace. So for certain, God does give something, and that something is grace, are share in His own life. So charitoo means to put into grace. But then too, kecharitomene is used in place of the name "Mary". This is like our English usage in which we say, for example, someone is Mr. Tennis. That means he is the ultimate in tennis. So then kecharitomene should mean "Miss Grace", the ultimate in grace. Hence we could reason that fullness of grace implies an Immaculate Conception.

Overflowing grace: Pius IX, in the document, Ineffabilis Deus, defining the Immaculate Conception in 1854 wrote: "He [God] attended her with such great love, more than all other creatures, that in her alone He took singular pleasure. Wherefore He so wonderfully filled her, more than all angelic spirits and all the Saints, with an abundance of all heavenly gifts taken from the treasury of the divinity, that she, always free from absolutely every stain of sin, and completely beautiful and perfect, presented such a fullness of innocence and holiness that none greater under God can be thought of, and no one but God can comprehend it."

What about the words of Jesus in Lk 11:27-28 (cf. Mt. 12:46-50 and Mk 3:35)? A woman in the crowd exclaimed: "Blessed is the womb that bore you...." He replied: "Rather blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it."

The dignity of being Mother of God is a quasi infinite dignity, as we just saw from the words of Pius XI. Yet here, our Lord is teaching us that the holiness coming from hearing the word of God and keeping it is something greater still. Her holiness must indeed be great--so great that "none greater under God can be thought of, and no one but God can comprehend it."

Even though Mary was full of grace at the start of her life, yet she could still grow, for, as it were, her capacity for grace could increase.

In general, a soul will grow in proportion to these things: (1) The greater the dignity of the person, the greater the merit In her case, the dignity of Mother of God is the highest possible for a creature. (2) The greater the work, the greater the merit: her cooperation in the redemption was the greatest work possible to a creature. (3) The greater the love, the greater the merit. Love of God means the attachment of our will to His. Her will adhered supremely, with no obstacle at all, so that even ordinary household duties, which she saw as the will of the Father for her, were supremely valuable.

---

Excerpted and adapted from Theology 523: Our Lady in Doctrine and Devotion, by Father William G. Most.

[what's up]

Likewise, decay is a dishonor as well

Yes, another way of saying the flesh is corrupt.

Christ preserved His mother from this dishonor. That is why there has never been a tomb of Mary

True of some of the early church leaders as well. Thus, this critieria is not proof one being "preserved from dishonor" since they decomposed along with Mary.

Not only that, but the authority of the Church states as dogma that Mary was assumed (body and soul) into heaven

Yes, of couse. That's what the whole debate is about.

[Verginius Rufus]

According to the Blue Guide City Guide: Rome, "according to Christian tradition, a Roman matron called Lucina buried the body of Paul in a vineyard on the site of the church of San Paolo fuori le Mura. A small shrine existed here when, in 384, a large basilica was begun by Valentinian II and Theodosius the Great at the request of Pope Damasus. It was enlarged by Theodosius' son Honorius and decorated with mosaics at the expense of Galla Placidia, the sister of Honorius."

So there could have been a local tradition between the time of St. Paul's execution and the building of the church, so that in 390 they had reason to believe the remains were of St. Paul.

[Revolting cat!]

AHA, so it's YOU! I don't remember (my memory, as well as my hearing are going bah-bye) did we hate each other then or not, competing for the best laugh lines? Disruption, subversion - luv 'em (and practive them) to this very day!

[Mrs. Don-o]

Interestingly, although there was an enormous commerce in relics in the church for twelve hundred years or more, and a very ardent interest in the remains and the tombs of the saints involved literally tens of millions of believers, nobody even claimed to have a relic of Mary: not a bone nor a tooth.

Even from a cynical point of view, if the Christians from, say, 330 AD to 1530 AD had thought it was even remotely possible for there to exist a physical relic of Mary, some entrepreneurial bone-merchant would have come up with a hank of hair or a vertebra. But no. Not a scrap. Nada.

From the day when the Christians emerged from the catacombs, nobody believed that Christ left his mother's body rotting in the earth.

Even if you don't believe that, you certainly shouldn't say the body doesn't count. We all believe in the resurrection of the body.

[paulat]

Since I researched my name...I learned that Paul was a pretty humorless guy....

He had the fire of a true believer...but I love the joke....

"...did the Corinthians ever write back???"

[Grammy]

LOL

Mr G might frown however.

[Verginius Rufus]

The Greek Orthodox Church has a feast of the Dormition of Mary--her "falling asleep"--also celebrated on August 15. They believe her body was taken up to heaven. The main difference is that the Orthodox say that Mary definitely died, whereas Pius XII left it open when he defined the dogma of the Assumption, whether Mary died or not before being assumed into heaven.

This is from what appears to be the official website of the Greek Orthodox Church in America--"dormition" is the Latin equivalent of the Greek term for falling asleep.

[adiaireton8]

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

That is Platonism, not Christianity. You are a soul/body composite. Your soul is not you; it is a part of you. Your body is not you; it is a part of you. We are not angels(i.e. spirits); we are mammals. We are not merely using bodies, like we drive cars. Smashing someone's car is ethically not equivalent to smashing their body. We *are* our bodies, though not only our bodies, because our soul is part of us as well.

What scriptural evidence do you have that would lend us to believe that we're stuck with this thing for an eternity?

First, consider passages that state that we material beings.

"Then the LORD GOD formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils and breath of life; and man became a living being." (Gen 2:7)

"Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again?" (Job 10:9)

"You turn men back to dust, saying, "Return to dust, O sons of men." (Psalm 90:3)

"For he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust." (Psalm 103:14)

"But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead." (Isaiah 26:19)

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2)

Second, the doctrine of the resurrection of the body does not fit with Platonism. If we are spirits, then being thrust back into bodies is like being thrown back into prison. But the doctrine of the resurrection of the body says that our bodies are good, that they are part of who we essentially are, and that we are not complete until they are restored to us. The doctrine of the resurrection of the dead is not a doctrine about a "re-creation" of the body. It is a *resurrection* of the body, a bringing back to life of this body.

If you want to know of Scripture verses concerning the resurrection of the body, consider the following:

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned" (John 5:28-29)

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Cor 15:51-52)

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (1 Thess 4:16)

-A8

[what's up]

Oxford dictionary defines reverence as

“the deep respect and veneration for some thing, place, or person regarded as having a sacred or exalted character.”

You say, "If God loved and revered Mary enough to allow her to bring His Son into the world"

Surely Catholics would not actually say God REVERED (venerated) Mary?

[Verginius Rufus]

In The Canterbury Tales Chaucer has a character with some remarkable relics, including part of St. Peter's sail (from when he was a fisherman), along with a piece of clothing that had belonged to Mary--but no relic of her body.

[paulat]

Thank you, VR! That is good information.

[FreedomCalls]

That is why she was assumed (body and soul) into heaven by her Son, who spared her the dishonor of decay.

What scripture is there to support that assertation?

[what's up]

You are a soul/body composite

I stated as much.