Posted on 11/27/2006 7:55:30 AM PST by RGSpincich
-snip-
Dramatic new details of the deadly mayhem include the undercover cop at one point climbing onto the hood of Bell's car - his gun drawn and his police shield around his neck - screaming, "Police! Turn off your car! Let me see your hands!" said sources who talked to some of the cops involved in the shooting.
When Bell then tried to run down the plainclothes officer - twice - the cop began shooting, with some of his 11 bullets piercing the rear window of the man's Nissan Altima, the sources said. -snip-
(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...
If anybody did that to me, I'd be wondering if he was on drugs or trying to carjack me.
That said, I think the driver very likely panicked.
Ironically, in self-defense training courses taught by former police officers, they teach average citizens to use the car, as a weapon if necessary, to get away from an assailant.
Really? They encourage individuals to disregard commands from an individual 6 feet away with a firearm pointed at their heads? Flys in the face of what carjack victims are advised to do by LE's. Don't resist. Especially without a clear exit path.
Bell was one of a group of five, supposedly arguing with another group of four. The second group of four left without incident.
One of the group of five is the one who provided "probable cause" by being armed inside the club, though the undercover officer never saw a gun and the "source" quoted in the article didn't actually use the word "gun".
If I am reading the article correctly, only four men got into Bell's car. Who was the fifth and where did he go? Was this fifth man NOT the one who created "probable cause"?
When the undercover officer supposedly challenged the people in the car, by putting his foot on the hood of the car, evidently one of the four men in the car left the car. Was this fourth man the one who supposedly had a gun and who provided "probable cause". Where did this fourth man go?
If neither the fifth man, who the police seem to have lost track of, or the fourth man, who the police seem to have lost track of, are the man who had the gun in the club, then one of the three remaining men must have been the one who had the gun in the club. So, why has this man not been identified as one of the three men who were shot? Where is the gun?
Since when would it be more important to follow and arrest somebody who was going to get a gun, rather than a person who is believed to already have one on him?
From the linked article: "The undercovers, who usually worked in Manhattan, were on the last night of their two-month Queens job to try to nail the Kalua and other clubs on such violations as drugs and underage prostitution. "
The last night of two months. To me it sounds very much like the BATF JBTs and their "show time" assault in Waco. You can't justify all the manpower, equipment, training, and other resources provided to the BATF unless they demonstrate that such are needed. It would not have been useful for Koresh to simply turn himself in when informed that a warrant existed. What budget would that justify?
Similarly, we now read of the last night of a two month operation to "try to nail" the Kalua Club. One might presume that nothing had been accomplished since the cover had evidently not been blown. I find it very convenient that the undercover operation managed to find something only on its last night of operation. And that what they found consisted of suspicion of possession of a firearm, and suspicion of attempting to possess a firearm.
I don't think the people who were accosted by the undercover policeman had any reason to believe that the person attempting to detain them was a cop. Further, how was it that the undercover cop only suffered a scratch while avoiding what he claimed was a deadly attack?
Chalk up another casualty of the war on some drugs and the war on prostitution. It makes me sick that I now must consider the possibility that a man not wearing a uniform might put his foot on the front of my car, point a gun at me, and that I have to consider the possibility that he might be a cop.
The person you're replying to picked a bad example. Go to Ebay and type "police badge" into the search box. There are a dozen pages of real badges, or passable knockoffs, for sale right now. The cheapest real badge I saw on there was only $15.
You may not believe the tin star, but what if someone flashed this one at you on a darkened street? It's yours for $6
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Style-SPECIAL-POLICE-Badge-Nickel-NIB_W0QQitemZ200049100992QQihZ010QQcategoryZ929QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item200049100992
This fine example is even nicer, and can be yours for only $20. Sure, you'll see that it's fake when you read the words, but how many people are going to read the text on a cops badge?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Obsolete-BILLY-REEVES-RUSHVILLE-POLICE-IND-Police-Badge_W0QQitemZ160054507437QQihZ006QQcategoryZ929QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item160054507437
Bunch of salient points here:
1) It is dark at 0400. Following someone 'closely' is bound to arouse suspicion in those being followed. So when the suspicious person jumps on your hood, points a gun at you, and starts screaming/yelling something, instinct will take over.
2) Officer states alternately that he had his foot on the front bumper and he was on the hood screaming 'police'. It was a late model car, and fairly well insulated. Unlikely the occupants understood what he was saying, and when a gun is pointed at ones head, one becomes fixated upon it and tends not to see the badge on a neck lanyard or hear what the gunman is screaming. Especially when the officer is dressed in civvies.
3) Officer number 1's bullets went through the rear window. The car was moving forward into the unmarked van blocking the way. Therefore, Officer #1 was in no immeadiate danger when he opened up, as he was behind the forward moving car. He then failed to check fire when friendlies entered his kill zone. Further, several articles have noted that NYPD procedures do not allow for use of deadly force in a vehicle only situation. He has to be under fire from that vehicle. Officer #1 was not under fire.
4) "Mr Beefy" seems to be the one whom the police 'knew' had a gun. He is also the only individual not shot at by police. He is also not in custody. The only ones shot were the ones not armed.
5) The paper relies heavily on un-named 'sources' for its info on what went down. Un-named sources also had Karl Rove as the leak of the non-spy's name. Un-named sources have said many things. Most of the time said source had an agenda. And for all we know the un-named sources are the officers PBA lawyers.
There are many things we know, and more we don't. But it doesn't look like the officers followed proper or prudent procedures.
Whatever give you that idea, honkey? For your information, Mr. Bell was a classical violinist working on autism among neighborhood children. What with Bush's Supreme Court clearly about to reinstate the Dred Scott Decision, he was right to try and run down the agents of a fascist government. I think his obviously wrongful death should be worth $50Million. His putative future widow should be able to double that on the lecture circuit when she and the childrens appear with Michael Jackson, Jesse Jackson, Reggie Jackson, and Action Jackson.
Guzman, on the other hand made his mark in entertainment. He often wowed the other guests of the government with his dead-on imitations of both Cheech and Chong, as well as Desi Arnaz and Ricardo Montalban. Since he is available for cross-examination, and his hilarious remarks might be misinterpreted by other than a Bronx County jury, I may only be able to get him $10 or $12 Million.
Mr. Benefield's sealed juvie record merely idicates that he is a high-spirited and ebullient youth. He will be subject to repeated Post-Traumatic Stress Related Disorders for his entire life. $25Million. I am sure that had this tragic incident not marred his young life, he would have gone far. Nobel Prize, you say? A possibility denied, my friend.
Yours sincerely,
The Ghost of F. Lee Bailey
So he deserved to die? Perhaps you enjoy that kind of police state madness, but most Americans do not. These "cops" must never again wear a uniform if the facts as laid out so far are true.
Hey Wings, come on up to my place and drive your car at me. See what happens!
When your life is on the line (when you are in the middle of a fire fight and you don't know who is who) you empty everything you can into the bad guys first - they you check to see if they move again while you reload.
Especially when given the opportunity to cease and desist has been ignored the only assumption is that the subjects ARE the bad guys.
Why?
Four empty casings inside of the vehicle, not from police guns.
A fourth perpetrator passenger in the car fled on foot, likely with the gun that fired the four.
These 4 guys were fleeing, and they had a reason too do so. There was a felony in progress.
As to what the reason was, we will eventually find out.The fourth man is the key. And I hope he is identified and arrested soon.
My guess is that there was a wholesale drug deal going down, to supply multiple players at the 250 strong wedding reception.
This team was undercover, new what they were looking for, and found it, but there was an argument among the perps, likely over money or extending credit for drugs for the wedding. There was a gun. There was deadly force used in flight
How much more righteous could it be??
Any cop slow on the trigger in a situation like this ends up at the morgue.
I am glad we have officers willing to go to the line with thugs like these. And they took them down , which is what we pay them for.
God Bless Them!
Ya....I learned a long time ago to actually use the
..../sarcasm
tag here at FR.
No matter how obvious you think it is, MANY will not recognize it.
Wow C-7.. Well thought out.... I must say!
A complete and concise detailed analysis of the issues open for discussion... it's just.... just... brute brilliance at work!
We'll see how this shakes out -- after they finish doing string on the scene and ballistics on 50-plus rounds.
In the interim.... recommended reading/analysis.
Shouldn't that be "The Ghost of Johnnie Cochran"? (Or at least, "The Ghost of Jackie Chiles"?)
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Yeah, or one might know that undercover officers build the case, not make the arrest everytime they see something. That's how they maintain their undercover status and it's how the DA gets enough to prosecute a real case.
The detective should go on the "rubber gun" squad just for that.
These incidents really bring out the luny fringe on this site.
The police officer attempts to prevent a shooting near a large group of people and somehow they are Waco feds.
Some of you people really are dangerous, and yet pathetically funny to me.
Prevent a shooting by "spray and pray?'!
You are gonna have to justify that one. These officers supposedly shot at a nearly 17x5 ft vehicle at point blank range, and managed to hit homes and a train station in the process. If they were firing fully automatic weapons, then I would belive a few stray rounds were in order.
But cheesy 9mm semi-autos! The recoil is minimal, at the return to target is very quick. That is, when one pays attention to the sight picture.
Sounds like a cure worse than the disease.
"Sounds like a cure worse than the disease."
1Do you know that the rounds came from police weapons? There were casings in the vehicle, correct?
2 Riccochets
3 What, police officer can't fire weapons around houses if there lives are in danger?
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