Sunday Morning Talk Show Thread 26 November 2006

To: Morgan in Denver

yes...there are several "factions" on that thread.

I tended to give the ones that want more force used a read...but I didn't post to them...I myself wonder about the use of more force but NOT flattening Iraq.

I DO get into a scrum with one freeper over his idea of flattening "the enemy" ...when I asked him how many Muslim countries he was willing to "flatten"....he started getting personally insulting...I don't respond to that.

361 posted on 11/26/2006 1:03:50 PM PST by Txsleuth (Bolton/Cheney (that would be Lynne) 08)

Ahhh..... the law of unintended consequences kicks in again. It's so easy to armchair quarterback Iraq and the global war on terror when one does not have all the information.

362 posted on 11/26/2006 1:08:18 PM PST by Morgan in Denver

twasn't I (at least I don't think so), but I love the quote.

Of course, I do also blame Winston's lousy skills at drawing maps for much of our current difficulties in that part of the world. He also bemoaned some of the decisions made after the fall of the Ottoman empire.

But, yes, Winston definitely got it about Islam.

I really have been into Sir Winston Churchill after reading the two completed volumes of what was to be a trilogy on his life, The Young Lion. The first covered his youth and early political career while the second covered "the wilderness years" up until being called back into government at the beginning of World War 2. The author never could get the thrid volume covering the war years and after before he passed away. Truly a shame.

363 posted on 11/26/2006 1:08:19 PM PST by Phsstpok (Often wrong, but never in doubt)

Thanks sleuth, wild and wooly over there.

364 posted on 11/26/2006 1:10:43 PM PST by rodguy911 (Support The New media, Ticket the Drive-bys, --America-The land of the Free because of the Brave-)

This is a piece written by MNJohnnie. You may also want to check out this link- Osama's Fatwa - from 1998 (MNJohnnie also provided me with the link). Why Iraq One of the really infuriating things in modern politics is the level of disinformation, misinformation, demagoguery and out right lying going on about the mission in Iraq. Democrats have spent the last 3+ years lying about Iraq out of a political calculation. The assumption is that the natural isolationist mindset of the average American voter, linked to the inherent Anti Americanism (what is misnamed the "Anti War movement") of the more feverish Democrat activists (especially those running the US's National "News" media) would restore them to national political dominance. The truth is the Democrat Party Leadership has simply lacked the courage to speak truth to whiners. The truth is that even if Al Gore won the 2000 election and 09-11 still happened we would be doing the EXACT same things in Iraq we are doing now. Based on the political situation in the region left over from the 1991 Gulf War, plus the domestic political consensus built up in BOTH parties since 1991 as well as fundamental military strategic laws, there was NO viable strategic choice for the US but to take out Iraq after finishing the initial operations in Afghanistan. To start with - Saddam's Iraq was our most immediate threat. We could NOT commit significant military forces to another battle with Saddam hovering undefeated on our flank, nor could we leave significant forces watching Saddam. The political containment of Iraq was breaking down. That's what Oil for Food was all about. Oil for Food was an attempt by Iraq to break out of it's diplomatic isolation and slip the shackles the UN Sanctions put on it's military. There was the US Strategic position to consider. The War on Islamic Fascism is different sort of war. In facing this Asymmetrical threat, we have a hidden foe, spread out across a geographically diverse area, with covert sources of supply. Since we cannot go everywhere they hide out, in fact often cannot even locate them until they engage us, we need to draw them out of hiding into a kill zone. Iraq is that kill zone. This is the true brilliance of the Iraq strategy. We draw the terrorists out of their world wide hiding places onto a battlefield they have to fight on for political reasons (The "Holy" soil of the Arabian peninsula) where they have to pit their weakest ability (Conventional Military combat power) against our greatest strength (ability to call down unbelievable amounts of firepower) where they will primarily have to fight other forces (the Iraqi Security forces) in a battlefield that is mostly neutral in terms of guerrilla warfare. (Iraqi-mostly open terrain as opposed to guerrilla friendly areas like the mountains of Afghanistan or the jungles of SE Asia). Did any of the critics of liberating Iraq ever look at a map? Iraq, for which we had the political, legal and moral justifications to attack, is the strategic high ground of the Middle East. A geographic barrier that cuts ground communication between Iran and Syria as well as providing another front for an attack in either state or into Saudi Arabia if needed. There were other reasons to do Iraq but here is the strategic military reason we are in Iraq. We have taken, and maintain the initiative from the Terrorists. They are playing OUR game on ground of OUR choosing. Problem is Counter Insurgency is SLOW and painful. Often a case of 3 steps forward, two steps back. One has to wonder if the American people have either the emotional maturity, nor the intellect" to understand. It's so much easier to spew made for TV slogans like "No Blood for Oil", "We support the Troops, bring them home" or the dumbest of all "We are creating terrorists" -than to actually THINK. Westerners in general, and the US citizens in particular seem to have trouble grasping the fundamental fact of this foe. These Islamic Fascists have NO desire to co-exist with them. The extremists see all this PC posturing by the Hysteric Left as a sign that we are weak. Since they want us dead, weakness encourages them. There is simply no way to coexist with people who completely believe their "god" will reward them for killing us. So we can convert to Islam, die or kill them. Iraq is about killing enough of them to make the rest of the Jihadists realize we are serious. The same way killing enough Germans, Italians and Japanese eliminated political viability of the ideologies of Nazism, Fascism and Bushido. Americans need to understand how Bin Laden and his ilk view us. In the Arab world the USA is considered a big wimp. We have run away so many times. Lebanon, the Kurds, the Iraqis in 1991, the Iranians, Somalia, Clinton all thru the 1990s etc etc etc. The Jihadists think we will run again. In fact they are counting on it. That way they can run around screaming "We beat the American just like the Russians, come join us in Jihad" and recruit the next round of "holy warriors". Iraq is also a show place where we show the Muslim world that there are lines they cannot cross. On 9-11-01 they crossed that line and we can, and will, destroy them for it

365 posted on 11/26/2006 1:27:15 PM PST by eeevil conservative (Religious Zealot from the Right Wing Church of Hate...............)

But I do know how it affected ME.

&&&&&&

And you are one voter among millions.

Another perspective since you claim an expertise in PR -
Instead of wall-to-wall media coverage the day after the election being a hymn of praise to Nancy, Harry, Howard, etc they had to sit in the East Room and shine their TV cameras on the President of the United States. I think it was a brillian move.

366 posted on 11/26/2006 1:38:08 PM PST by maica (9/11 was not ?the day everything changed?, but the day that revealed how much had already changed.)

I see it as an attack not the reverse.

You and I have the same perspective on the Rumsfeld departure.

367 posted on 11/26/2006 1:39:54 PM PST by maica (9/11 was not ?the day everything changed?, but the day that revealed how much had already changed.)

That's why I was really interested in seeing Butler get the GOP Senate nod here in MI. He understood what the Islamofacists are all about.

368 posted on 11/26/2006 1:46:15 PM PST by kcbc2001

I'm so glad that I didn't actually hear him say that. It was anti-Republican in large part because of the outrageous spending that they are doing. Apparently, 2006 has taught this guy nothing.

369 posted on 11/26/2006 1:55:00 PM PST by kcbc2001

I DO get into a scrum with one freeper over his idea of flattening "the enemy" ...when I asked him how many Muslim countries he was willing to "flatten"...

This will, if it has not already, become the central question with regard to the WOT and the Middle East in general. The Islamo-fanatics have been increasingly violent and more sophisticated in their activities. The logical extension of the situation, if things remain on their present course, is a devastating attack on an American city. And so, this sort of questioning must, IMHO, be factored into the planning.

A nuclear detonation etc. by terrorists coming through our porous borders would necessitate a response that would decimate the "usual suspects" and large portions of the swamp of humanity in which the terrorist scum comfortably and invisibly reside.

Since I see little or no progress on securing our borders and absolutely no progress in deterring the Iranian madness, I find myself thinking about the unthinkable more and more these perilous days.

370 posted on 11/26/2006 2:03:58 PM PST by PerConPat (A politician is an animal which can sit on a fence and yet keep both ears to the ground.-- Mencken)

To: Alas Babylon!; Phsstpok; Txsleuth

Basically here is what the Freeper Generals would have us do in Iraq. Counter Insurgency Doctrine done the Dinocon way.

Americans: Yo, all you Iraqis. Now we know you all have been oppressed and terrorized by Saddam and his goons for about 40 years so we came over here to show you a better way. So gather round and we are going to teach you this thing called Democracy. We want to teach you this cause we figure if we get can get enough of you following this ideology you will not follow the ideology that preaches it is a good thing to fly airplanes into buildings full of our Civilians.

Now the first things you need to learn is this part about the Rule of Law. Study the sub chapters on Innocent until prove Guilty, Trial by Jury, Right to Legal Representation and really important, the chapter on outlawing Cruel and Unusual Punishment. Ok, now while you do that, we are going to arbitrarily round up and kill any Iraqis who we think maybe have ever talked mean about us.

What? No we are not going to bother with any of that messy Democracy stuff cause we are at war. And according to our Holloweird Movie guide to Military Action flicks any time you are at war you can waste anyone who pisses you off for what ever reason you want any way you want to do it. According to Hollyweird, we don't need nothing like proof or nothing we can just go wack that little Al Sadr freak cause he pisses us off. Evidence? We don't need no stickin' evidence. Our action movie heros never bother with any evidence. In the Movie we watch on TV says we are just suppose to go kill him because he pisses us off so that what we want to do here. Now quit talking back and learn our lessons on Democracy.

Iraqi 1. Hey Mahmoud, why are we helping these clowns?

Iraqi 2. What do you mean Achmed, they got rid of Saddam!

Iraqi 1. They did? Looks to me like they just took his place.

Iraqi 2. Well ya so?

Iraqi 1. Well at least the old thugs were from around here. These guys are not only from out of town they are not even Muslims. We may has well have Muslim thugs if we got to have thugs.

Iraqi 2. You right, time to join the Jihad!

That is what Freeper General Counter Insurgency doctrine as learned from watching TV Sitcoms would produce. It is utter stupidity but forget trying to penetrate their welded shut minds. They are too busy screaming what Democrat Campaign Contributor Mike Savage told them to say to do any thinking about Iraq.

Way past time the Freeper Know Nothings sit down, shut up and actually finally learns some BASIC facts about Iraq. Why are you all so afraid to actually LEARN something? Afraid you might have to finally admit you all have been wrong about Iraq from the start?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Security_Forces

http://icasualties.org/oif/

http://icasualties.org/oif/IraqiDeaths.aspx

371 posted on 11/26/2006 2:08:43 PM PST by MNJohnnie (I do not forgive Senator John McCain for helping destroy everything we built since 1980.)

372 posted on 11/26/2006 2:13:36 PM PST by Cindy

Good post, Johnnie...

I feel like all of the speeches and talks that Pres. Bush, Cheney, Rummy have given...plus the abudance of links that have been posted on this website...have either been ignored..gone over the head of some freepers, OR..

And this is the big one....they all are SMARTER than anyone ever was in the White House..and would have either gotten rid of our enemy by not going to war in Iraq...or would have fought the PERFECT war.

373 posted on 11/26/2006 2:17:29 PM PST by Txsleuth (Bolton/Cheney (that would be Lynne) 08)

The thing that you have to remember is that when AK became a state they were promised money for highways/bridges/roads from the feds because they don't have the roads/infrastructure that the lower 48 do.

I'm not saying the bridges were good or bad ideas. All I'm arguing is that a lot of people in AK want to see their state developed, but they are restricted by state and federal "protected land" laws and sometimes you get crazy ideas because of that.

I don't see AK having the population to support another University. They have a hard time attracting students into the UAlaska system as it is because young people want to go out and experience the "Outside". I'm not sure about another hospital. When people think about development, it's about roads and bridges to move goods and services and being "a little more" like the Lower 48 (but not much!)

374 posted on 11/26/2006 2:18:46 PM PST by kcbc2001

good grief....they just had a blurb on the Fox News ticker that said ..

Sen. Richard Durbin is calling on the Iraqi leadership to disband all militias and to get rid of all gangs, and act responsibly!!!!

WOW...I bet Maliki hasn't thought of doing that..it will be SO easy.

375 posted on 11/26/2006 2:19:18 PM PST by Txsleuth (Bolton/Cheney (that would be Lynne) 08)

jeez, Cindy....you are just a font of good news, aren't you??

LOL

Seriesly, thank you so much for all that you do to inform us..and warn us.

376 posted on 11/26/2006 2:21:15 PM PST by Txsleuth (Bolton/Cheney (that would be Lynne) 08)

To: Morgan in Denver

Yes sir. One guy even said we should be like Joshua in the Bible and destroy everything and everyone. I told him fine, then he should run for office, and tell folks in his district that he proposes to kill every man, women, child, and animal in every city, town, and village we conquer. Of course, the Nazis did this in Eastern Europe, but sure, no one would call you a Nazi here in the US /s!

377 posted on 11/26/2006 2:22:40 PM PST by Alas Babylon!

You're welcome TxSleuth.

378 posted on 11/26/2006 2:23:13 PM PST by Cindy

I thought a couple of weeks ago, Stephy and Wolfie's shows were mentioned at some point; however, I didn't notice until you pointed it out that there was no Face the Nation.

379 posted on 11/26/2006 2:25:28 PM PST by kcbc2001

I am beginning to think that we may have purged the Pat Buchanan, Michael Savage wing of the Party. There were just enough to convince others of their insane beliefs, and to stay home on Nov 7. They really hate GWB and Rummy as much as the BDS victims in the Rat Party. They are only interested in having their opinions as rule of law. They are reactionary, and have no clue about Iraq, or Iran or even N Korea. They just listen to the Israel hating Buchanan and follow his commands/orders. One good thing is that they are People that we wish were not in the Party because they are so mean, hateful, and prejudiced that they turn off people that might naturally migrate to the Republican Party for it's platform. When we recruit Hispanics and Blacks into our Party, those are the people that complain stridently and drive them away. I am glad they will be gone so that we can actively recruit all races, Religions, creeds into our Party.

380 posted on 11/26/2006 2:29:11 PM PST by samantha

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794