First Comes Junior In a Baby Carriage (4 in 10 Births by Single Moms)

....More American women than ever are putting motherhood before matrimony. New data released by the Centers for Disease Control show that nearly four in 10 U.S. babies were born outside of marriage in 2005—a new high. These unwed moms aren't all teens—last year teen pregnancies fell to their lowest levels in 65 years. Some—like 44-year-old Mary Lee MacKichan, who used a gay friend as a sperm donor—are professional, older women who want to have babies before their biological clocks run out, but most are low-income twentysomethings. (Unwed births among 30- to 44-year-olds are up 17 percent since 1991; among those 25 to 29, they're up 30 percent.) And some 40 percent of those moms aren't going it alone—they're cohabiting, at least for a while. That's creating a major shift in what a generation of children are coming to call a family. "Marriage is still alive and well, but it has a lot of competition," says Wellesley College sociologist Rosanna Hertz, author of "Single by Chance, Mothers by Choice."

Ironically, sociologists say, marriage may be on the decline precisely because it has become so idealized. People expect more from marriage than they did a century ago, when it was mainly a practical arrangement to provide financial stability for women and a place to raise children. "Now it's not only love and romance but also self-fulfillment and personal growth," says Pamela Smock, professor of sociology at the University of Michigan. Since there's no longer much of a stigma attached to getting pregnant outside of marriage, many couples have replaced "shotgun weddings" with "shotgun cohabitations

"See, I don't think you really do. You consistently frame issues in terms of a self serving outcome on one hand, and a clearly undesirable outcome as the other. From reading your posts, I think that you feel you "know that," but there is no real evidence besides your assertion that you do."

Well, the two extremes are the ones that are being debated... Either be a stay at home mom or be a catwoman. That's what these posters believe; I'm just confronting them with their position.

"You are the once who consistently frames things with this immature, either.or dynamic. While there may be some on the board who believe it's limited to one of two choices, they are wrong. The thing you fail to realize is that while rightfully pointing out that they are wrong, that you are wrong also. That just makes you both wrong - your analysis is as sucky as theirs. If you take some satisfaction in that, enjoy."

I like watching narrow-minded people's heads explode when presenting them with a position that they hate. It helps me to blow off steam.

So you do make an effort to find out? Good - you failed to communicate that in your earlier post. Thanks for clarifying it.

I will say that a guy putting himself through college isn't exactly a lawyer, teacher, or professor yet. Suggesting that they are is silly. He does have a goal and is working towards it, to his credit. and credit to women who give credit to that. But, you do have to ask, and more importantly listen.

I do agree with you and feel that many women find a guy with a dead-end job and a dead-end ambition to be unappealing. I agree and can see why a woman would dismiss a guy like that. I think it's right, in fact.

It must be nice to be so great at everything that you have to be bad at cooking in order to have other people think you're human! Personally, I think there's nothing better than knowing I can, any time I want to make the effort, have an absolutely delicious meal. I usually feed the leftovers to myself and my husband for lunch the next day so I make darn sure it's good!

In math, "equal" means "the same as". In relationships that's not true. Women aren't the same as men, and that doesn't make them better or worse. Just different. That is a good thing. Most women, when confronted with their own infant child, will feel nurturing and want to care for it. Obviously no blanket statement is true for everything.

I am sorry you think so little of men that you'd deny your hypothetical child a father. Before I met my husband, I sort of wanted kids. It was a "maybe that'd be nice one day" thing. Since i've met him I'm looking eagerly forward to our family. I can see all the traits and skills he has that will mix with what I have in our children. It's so much more exciting to think about 'our' children than 'my' children. I can't imagine having kids on my own or with anyone else.

I can't speak for most people. I find racial bigotry pitiful, actually. I just don't get emotionally animated so much, I guess.

And despite the clairvoyance you exhibit in the latter part of your post, in fact you can't speak for what's in the mind of other people. You just don't know, but you seem to think you might now. That's a problem, but one you will wrestle with as you mature. Well, if you mature. I think you probably might mature, but I don't know - I can't read your mind.

In any event, you haven't addressed my point - people can come to those conclusions you find unpalatable on non-sexist grounds. If you can't grasp that, you're ignoring a good portion of the equation, and will draw faulty and fundamentally unfair conclusions yourself.

Even if that's true, the fact is that those people have no power to make those changes in society. They might be nostalgic over what they think was a better time, but that time is not coming back.

And that's very true also, and something I don't think Accygirl has a grasp of. Those folks are fighting a nonexistent battle. The unpleasant corollary to that is that Accygirl is fighting an essentially non existent battle also.

But if it makes them all happy, fine.

I have 1 special needs child. She doesn't do after school activities. My regular middle school so probably has more activities than she does.

There is no bus to any of my kids' school. Lots of communities do not have busing anymore. If your kids are in private school, they also do not have busing. Parents drive their kids to school.

A child needs about 10 hours of sleep at night. If they are going to a sitters at 6 they won't go back to sleep. Once kids are awake, they are awake. So they have to go to bed early. That means they need to go to bed at like 7:30pm.

I have a middle school son who is in high school algebra. Most nannies would not be able to help him in his math, and that is the area that he needs help in.

My special needs daughter has actually less appointments than a kid with allergies and/or asthma. Ashtma is very common these days, especially among kids that go to daycare. Kids with frequent ear infections go to the doctors alot. Kids with glasses go to the doctors alot.

My kids have not started braces yet. That is tons of appointments, and most every child has to go through that. Multiply that by 2 or 3 (or more), and you have a lot of appointments.

"One parent could cut back on work or even work from the home if possible..."

That's what I have said all along. However, one parent has to. It may not be the woman. It could be the man.

You don't know what kind of child you will have. You need to be financially able to handle staying at home.

I made around 60K when I quit working 10 years ago. By the time you took away the nanny, the housekeeper, the clothes, the gas, the food in order to keep me working, I just didn't make that much money. I think we figured it was around 15K a year that we actually benefitted from, and it was a ton of stress. I ended up staying home. My husband did a few extra jobs because he had the time, and it was a lot less stress.

"I hate to re-open what appears to be a dead thread, but your responses have finally provoked me to the point that I am willing to do just that. I currently work with many MBA grads from the schools that you mention, and I can say with impunity that these grads are just about the most ignorant (not stupid) folks that I work with. I am currently employed by a Fortune 5 company that rewards these grads very well. "

The MBA gets you a foot in the door; it doesn't get you promoted to the top in five years. MBA grads have to prove their worth like everyone else by meeting their goals and excelling in their job. If your company doesn't feel this way, then it'll be out of business like Enron is soon enough.

"The problems that they face is that they are so elitist that they think they have no reason to learn the business. They think that their grad degree entitles them to constant promotion, without them having to ever actually learn the business. They are destroying the company that I work for. They are the enemy of success. "

Yep, and it'll declare bankruptcy soon enough. I completely understand that an elite MBA is basically $100,000 networking opportunity. However, it's going to introduce me to people that I wouldn't otherwise meet and open doors for me that I wouldn't have otherwise. As I don't plan on spending my life doing entry level drudge work, this sounds like a good deal to me.

A wise MBA student uses the opportunities to their advantage and a bad MBA student runs their company into the ground.

"Now, I am not stating that you are headed down that path, but your posts sure ring of the same type of elitism. Please consider this as constructive criticism, that is all that I mean by it. My feedback is the same for either the men or women graduates."

P.S. Why exactly am I an elitist snob? Because I don't want to date people who work at McDonalds or sweep floors for a living?

"In addition, I can tell you that very few of the women that I know from these major programs, with MBA degrees, are happily married. Many of them are miserably single. Yes, they were advanced to high status positions, but they are not truly happy. On the other hand, the men in the same positions are generally happily married and are providing for their spouse. There is a stark difference."

Well, I know many women who are happily single or happily married career women. I don't see the incompatibility between a professional degree and happiness for women.

Well, the two extremes are the ones that are being debated

No, not at all. And to the extent that you limit it to that you will be consistently wrong also. It was you who created those two options and have tried to limit the debate to that. Of course, that's self serving. When you frame the debate that way, you have to win.

The range is broader, and therein you may not always win. You rationalize the use of the false dichotomy, but most adults here know that's not the choice. You protest that you are confronting the other folks, and I don't doubt you are sincere. Yet, you chronically are unable to depart from it, which undermines your position more than you may know.

I like watching narrow-minded people's heads explode when presenting them with a position that they hate. It helps me to blow off steam.

I'd suggest finding another hobby, but if you like it, fine. But I do have to point out that your thinking consistently comes across narrow also. So that steam you may be blowing off might just be your own head exploding. I really can't say.

While your basic position is sound and I agree with it, you seem unable to communicate effectively. But good luck - thinking gets better with clarity and practice. Or so I've been told.

If I can't find a desirable partner, I'd consider having a baby alone. If I do by some miracle get married, I'm still going to go to work as I don't like housework and being a PTA mommy.

Do yourself a favor, and talk to as many single moms as you can before you opt for single parenthood. It's not about being a "PTA mommy", but the myriad of activities that kids involve themselves in, whether it be dance, sports, you name it. You will owe it to your child(ren) to be actively involved in their lives.

God forbid your child not share your passion for education (lol)! My daughter is doing quite well in college, while my son has been a marginal student. He will be attending a local community college until he proves that he can handle the requirements of a 4 year college.

Beware! Babies are messy, and demanding. Please don't wear expensive clothing while burping the "ankle biter", lest he/she spit up several ounces of formula on you. Demanding? You can count on your baby waking up in the middle of the night BEFORE an important presentation.

I wish you well in your endeavors.

BTW, since you expressed a preference for wine tasting, I strongly recommend a trip to the Mosel River Valley in Germany, particularly during the summer months. You'd be able to enjoy any of several wine fests from Trier to Koblenz. Great wine, and very friendly people. Prosit!

"Do yourself a favor, and talk to as many single moms as you can before you opt for single parenthood. It's not about being a "PTA mommy", but the myriad of activities that kids involve themselves in, whether it be dance, sports, you name it. You will owe it to your child(ren) to be actively involved in their lives. "

Frankly, I think that many of those kids do the activities for their parents, not because the kids want to. Kids would be more happy if they were able to play a pick-up game of basketball or dance around their rooms rather than having to go to an organized activity. Organized activities are important in high school as college want to admit students passionate about something, but not before then.

"God forbid your child not share your passion for education (lol)! My daughter is doing quite well in college, while my son has been a marginal student. He will be attending a local community college until he proves that he can handle the requirements of a 4 year college."

And I don't find guys that aren't intellectual or professionally motivated personally appealing. Nor do I think that your son would find me interesting.

"Beware! Babies are messy, and demanding. Please don't wear expensive clothing while burping the "ankle biter", lest he/she spit up several ounces of formula on you. Demanding? You can count on your baby waking up in the middle of the night BEFORE an important presentation. "

That happens whether or not you're married or decide to work.

Yes and I admire them for it... That doesn't mean that I want to date them however. If I went out with a soldier especially an enlisted man, I'd probably have nothing in common with him. I don't know many Army guys who enjoy wine tasting, art museums, and political lectures, all hobbies of mine.

You THINK you'd have nothing in common with them. How many members of the military have you actually met or deigned to talk to? Please continue to feel that way. The rest of us who know better will steer nicer young ladies toward our brave soldiers.

I'm sure that soldiers are "prime catches" for another catch of girls, but for those of us working toward our graduate degrees, they really are not our type

Speak for yourself, honey.

Not ones who flip burgers a McDonalds.

Do you really think a little child knows or cares what Daddy does for a living?

They care that they have a Daddy and a Mommy who love them, and love each other. They need to see and experience both masculine and feminine parenting styles to understand how to parent as adults.

As a man, and a grad-school educated professional, and a husband of another grad-schoool educated professional, and a father of 4 ... I can see why you might have trouble finding a husband.

What I get from your posts is that you think Dads are optional (meaning you'll feel free to dump him and leave with the kids) and the most important thing about a man to you is his ability to earn big bucks (which means you'll ditch him if he's ever unemployed or unable to work for health reasons). Maybe I'm wrong, but that's absolutely how you come across.

I consider the pot roast to be the metaphor for the ideal 1950s housewife... No modern woman has enough time to cook a pot roast for a weekday meal in today's world, whether or not they stay at home. That ideal is something that I do despise as it significantly limits women's intellectual self-worth. The idea that men would demand that women actually stay in the kitchen and that this idea was accepted by society as okay is abhorrent to me.

Wow. That really reveals a lot about you.

Cooking a pot roast for your husband, does not make you repressed or limit your intellectual self-worth.

If you really believe that, you have no intellect to feel any self worth about, so I guess it would be understandable that you feel that way.

Sheesh. It's just a pot roast. Get over it.

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