Posted on 11/20/2006 8:24:45 AM PST by areafiftyone
Mitt Romney (R) begins the 2008 campaign season in fourth place among those seeking the GOP Presidential nomination, trailing Rudy Giuliani, John McCain, and Condoleezza Rice. While many Republican insiders believe the Massachusetts Governor could become an attractive candidate to the party's social conservatives, a Rasmussen Reports survey finds that Romney's faith may initially be more of a hindrance than a help.
Forty-three percent (43%) of American voters say they would never even consider voting for a Mormon Presidential candidate. Only 38% say they would consider casting such a vote while 19% are not sure. Half (53%) of all Evangelical Christians say that they would not consider voting for a Mormon candidate.
Overall, 29% of Likely Voters have a favorable opinion of Romney while 30% hold an unfavorable view. Most of those opinions are less than firmly held. Ten percent (10%) hold a very favorable opinion while 11% have a very unfavorable assessment. Among the 41% with no opinion of Romney, just 27% say they would consider voting for a Mormon.
It is possible, of course, that these perceptions might change as Romney becomes better known and his faith is considered in the context of his campaign. Currently, just 19% of Likely Voters are able to identify Romney as the Mormon candidate from a list of six potential Presidential candidates.
The response to a theoretical Mormon candidate is far less negative than the response to a Muslim candidate or an atheist. Sixty-one percent (61%) of Likely Voters say they would never consider voting for a Muslim Presidential candidate. Sixty percent (60%) say the same about an atheist.
The Rasmussen Reports survey found that 35% say that a candidate's faith and religious beliefs are very important in their voting decision. Another 27% say faith and religious beliefs are somewhat important. Ninety-two percent (92%) of Evangelical Christian voters consider a candidate's faith and beliefs important.
On the partisan front, 78% of Republicans say that a candidate's faith is an important consideration, a view shared by 55% of Democrats. However, there is also a significant divide on this topic within the Democratic Party. Among minority Democrats, 71% consider faith and religious beliefs an important consideration for voting. Just 44% of white Democrats agree.
The national telephone survey of 1,000 Likely Voters was conducted by Rasmussen Reports November 16-17, 2006. The margin of sampling error for the survey is +/- 3 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence.
They believe that there are 3 different Gods: the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. They deny the essence of Christianity that there is ONLY ONE God - three different persons but only one God. Mormons believe that there are 3 gods holding the office of Trinity, which is denying the biblical truth, disqualifiying them as Christians.
Okay, I can say for certainty that a certain snake was loose in the garden. That at least makes him older than at least everybody (except perhaps Adam & Eve).
So, that would make him your elder brother, right? (I mean, if Jesus is your Elder brother, and Lucifer is Jesus' brother, then Lucifer is also your elder brother, right?)
You said I used the term "mere" a bit too loosely in conjunction with creation. Well you use the term "creation" a bit too loosely above. Joseph Smith taught that matter was eternal--opposing Hebrews 11:3. Joseph also clearly taught that this eternal matter was "organized."
In case you haven't noticed, there's a big difference if I tell you to "organize" your house versus "building it from nothing."
No, Mormon missionaries don't ask you to pray about which Jesus is true. They present a book that doesn't differ in too many places from the Bible and ask you to pray if this historical book is true.
When you read the BoM, it says absolutely nothing about Jesus being a man-who-became God; about exaltation; about 3 degrees of glory; about becoming a god; about God having a body of flesh & bones...etc.
No, initiates only get that after advancing beyond the initial "primer."
Yay for out of context. In fact your scripture quotes are out of context as well or incomplete.
I know the speech of which you speak. It was actually in 1982. You leave a lot out just by saying he advised against a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Strangely enough he also talked about his speech not being an "end to controversy or to the spread of false views and doctrines."
Yea that's right, dead guy talking about something you are doing today. Freaky isn't it...
>>First off, don't take this out of context.
ROTFLOL! This from you?
Oh this is going to be good.
>>For example, if there was no urgent gospel to take to people...if all are fine as is...
>>then by all means, call all the LDS missionaries home.
You have a unique grasp of the English language to get this from what I said.
>>I mean, aren't you "judging" every household that an LDS missionary visits as a >>potential eventual visitor to either hell or a "lesser glory?"
Short answer: No. We are commanded to preach, we preach. We are commanded to teach, we teach. See James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
In fact all of James 2 is a really good read, if you actually want to understand Mormons.
>>The fact of the matter is…
The rest of this paragraph was complete and utter drivel, unsupported opinion presented as fact. I hereby refute all of it by stating it is not true.
>>Jesus' comment about "ye shall know them by their fruit" is somewhat relevant here
Yes, Mormons have a reputation for Family orientation, clean living and Honesty (individuals may differ, but this is what is taught). I’d say that was pretty good fruit.
>>Likewise, the apostle Paul said "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things
>>that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot
>>understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes
>>judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 'For
>>who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?' But we have the mind
>>of Christ." (1 Cor. 2:14-16).
I see why you think Mormonism is foolishness now, thank you for enlightening me on that point of your psychology.
>>So bottom line here, we all make spiritual judgments.
Speak for your self, please.
>>(But only those who share "the mind of Christ" makes accurate assessments...because
>>as 1 Cor. 2:14-16 "judging" is just another way of saying "discerning"--and John says
>>we are to "test all things, hold fast to that which is true.")
Oh yes, I knew this would be good with the first line! Hypocrite, behold thy mirror! To paraphrase your paragraph: Since I have the “Mind of Christ” I can judge you and it’s OK. Since you don’t have the mind of Christ, if you judge me, you are breaking commandments!
>>So, true Christians are in the "things-judging" business...(not the people-judging business).
Yet, you judge me.
>>Finally, we cannot judge people's inward motives. Nobody has that kind of inner knowledge.
Jesus Christ my lord and master, he has that kind of knowledge. You on the other hand have denounced me and my fellow Mormons, we are not Christians to you and all who are not Christians according to you are going to Hell (Hand basket optional). Thus you have judged me with out an inkling of what is in my heart; you admit you do not have this knowledge.
Doesn't Differ??????? Have you read the BoM?
Of course, only Jesus can tell who is and who isn't.
My questions for you:
(1) Does God ever give anyone spiritual discernment to someone to discern where another person is, snapshot like, at that point in his/her life spiritually at that moment? Look, for example at Philip in the book of Acts re: the Ethiopian eunuch: "The Spirit told Philip, 'Go to that chariot and stay near it.' Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. 'Do you understand what you are reading?' Philip asked." (Acts 8:29-30)
Now, was Philip being judgmental when he asked the Ethiopian, "Do you understand what you are reading?" (That question would only be asked of someone who was assuming that their understanding was not where it the Holy Spirit wanted it to be, revelation-wise).
(2) When Jesus says "Ye shall know them by their fruit," is that a totally meaningless statement? (Should that verse have been changed in the JST to read, "Ye shall not know them at all, by their fruit or by their professed doctrine, because that could be conceived as being judgmental"?)
(3) Why bother sending missionaries, LDS or Christian, to the Buddhists in Asia or the Hindus in India? I mean isn't that presumptively passing "judgment" on them? Aren't these missionary agencies guilty, as you claim, of declaring them "unChristian?" How could they possibly "see into the heart" of any given Buddhist, Muslim, or Hindu?
(4) To be a latter-day saint has a definite definition/boundary. So "Christian" carries no similar definition/boundary? It's self-determined? Self-identified?
Yes, I did have the year wrong. People can check for themselves the context by searching it out on the Web. But you concede quite a bit when you say, "You leave a lot out just by saying he advised against a relationship with Jesus Christ." You thereby address what I didn't say about McConkie's words while conceding he indeed say what I did said he said.
How about: "Ye shall know them by their high (state) suicide rate...Utah being about 60%+ LDS)?
While I could have fun with your Misspelling of Pay for Pray, I won’t
>>There are two kinds of people in this: Those who teach to pay only to the Father; and
>>those who teach to pray to God as Father God as Son in the Holy Spirit. Mormons
>>are the first, failing the Book of Mormon injunction and precedent found in 3 Nephi
>>19:17-26:
>>"v. 18: "and they did pray unto Jesus." v. 24: "disciples...did still continue, without
>>ceasing to pray him." v. 25: "Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him." v. 26:
>>"And Jesus said unto them: pray on, nevertheless, they did not cease to pray."
They prayed to Jesus because he was physically there.
Some folks have ceased to pray to Jesus.
We pray to God the Father because Jesus did and gave all the Glory to him. So, so do we. If we err in this it is a small thing compared to those who do not pray to either, yet we stand condemned beside the heathen in your eyes and by your statements.
Who has judged whom? Joseph Smith passed judgment on every professor of Christendom as being "corrupt!" So Joseph Smith was given that knowledge of every heart and mind and soul to make such a widescale, sweeping, accusation?
Joseph Smith judged every creed of Christendom as an "abomination" before God. Now who's judging who?
In short, Joseph Smith judged every Christian who claims to be part of "the faith that was ONCE FOR ALL entrusted to the saints" (Jude 4) [BTW, "once for all" means "once for all"--not a total apostasy to be restored again...just like Jesus told a true prophesy when He said the gates of hell shall not prevail against His church...whereas Joseph was calling Jesus a liar in that such a prevailing did occur).
And yet Mormons have no problem voting for evangelical candidates. None whatsoever. Utah provided Bush his widest margin of victory in 2004.
Differs on grace. Doesn't differ on God as Spirit. Doesn't differ on heaven. Doesn't differ on describing hell as eternal. Doesn't differ on the tri-une God. Quotes Isaiah wholesale (as in wholesale borrowing). Imports many many NT passages. Talks about need to be born again.
Big difference, of course, on historical veracity. But I was talking more doctrinally, not history.
You do know what "out of context" means don't you...by your reply apparently not.
I'm looking at a BoM now and it is vastly different from the Bible. It sounds like the Bible but it is vastly different.
I like what the LDS have done in supporting marriage-protection amendments. I like some of Romney's statements on same-sex marriage. I posted earlier that I believe that Mormons can govern well.
My only concerns I've come up with at this point are:
(1) I think it's better for someone who has a direct connection with the Security of the Universe in our terrorist environment--that he would be a better choice than someone whose conversing with a foreign (foreign to the Bible) god. But, of course, that's an ideal that doesn't situate itself to all elections.
(2) Just as the LDS organizers "governed well" in the administrative details the Utah Olympics, so, too, can other LDS folks when it comes to public service. (Certainly, many fine LDS are serving our country well in military, CIA, etc.) But, I just know that an LDS prez would be dealt with the same way the LDS "used" the Olympics: Proselytizing/P.R. for the church itself. Souls would be captured to the LDSism for eternity.
Is that not a reality--even if some folks think that it's not enough of a reality to keep them from voting for someone like Romney?
Yes. While on earth, Jesus gave all the glory to the Father. But Jesus has a share in that glory now:
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that Your Son may glorify you...And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:1,5)
So, now what's your excuse? (BTW, this "glory" isn't new to Jesus...he just laid it down for a 33-year span within the context of eternity...note the words, "the glory I had with you before the world began." Oops, there goes the man-become-god theory...it's rather the God-become-man Biblical truth).
I don't think Joseph Smith was ever accused of killing people who refused to join his church, nor Brigham Young--even if Brigham Young was guilty in the Mountain Meadows affair (I don't claim to be familiar with the details), it didn't represent a policy of imposing his religion by force on others.
On the other prophet, Robert Spencer's new book is very illuminating.
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