"Flags of our Fathers" mini-review

self | 10/20/06 | LS

[LS]

This is not intended as a full-scale review, just some impressions from seeing the movie tonight.

First, as you likely know, it deals with the three men (a Navy corpsman and two Marines) of the six flag raisers who survived Iwo Jima. Clint Eastwood directed this pic, which traces the first flag-raising---which, of course, was thought to be "the" flag-raising---then the second, captured for all time in Joe Rosenthal's photo. The main plot line is that the nation was broke, and would have to sue for peace with the Japanese (right) if we didn't generate more money, quickly, through war bond sales. So these three men were dragooned into doing war bond tours, even to the point of re-enacting their "charge" up Suribachi and their flag-raising.

Second, Eastwood jumps back and forth between time frames---the bond tour, combat on Iwo Jima---that it's extremely difficult to follow. Despite taking time on the ship to try to set the characters of those other than the three main characters (Ira Hayes, Rene Gagnon, and John Bradley), the grittiness of war makes the men look so much alike that, well, it's hard to identify with any particular characters---at least, it was for me.

The main theme of the movie is guilt: the guilt felt by the flag-raisers for their buddies who didn't survive, guilt on Gagnon's part for "only" being a runner, guilt on Hayes's part for only firing his weapon a few times. Eastwood drives home the difficulty of bearing the label "hero," especially when one hasn't done anything particularly outstanding, except for surviving. While he does try, through the War Department representative, to grapple with the public's need for heroes---men who can symbolize what the others went through---Eastwood never quite gets there. Torn between trying to depict the carnage and mayhem of war and the importance of living icons with which to identify, Eastwood comes up a little short in each.

The final lines of the movie repeat the refrain from "Black Hawk Down," "Saving Private Ryan," and other recent war movies: Ultimately, they fought for each other, not for a cause or a country. Perhaps some did, but I find it hard to believe that so many millions of men signed up just to fight for each other.

Moreover, while the photo did capture the public's imagination, there was no doubt in anyone's mind that we would win the Pacific eventually; and in February 1945, with Nazi Germany collapsing, the Bulge pocket pushed back out, and American armies pushing into Germany, to suggest that Americans were about to "give up" if we hadn't gotten a miraculous photo is utter nonsense.

In short, I was disappointed only because I expected a lot more.

[Dajjal]

What's with the "R" rating? Is it more for graphic death scenes, or for language?
My dad was on Iwo, and he's been gone for seventeen years now. My youngest is twelve, and I'd love for him to see it, but what's your advice?

There is a lot of salty language, but it's more for the shots of ripped open and dismembered bodies. My advice is to see it yourself, and then decide whether to take the 12-yr.-old. The connection to his grandfather may outweigh any other concerns.

[Tammy8]

My hubby was in Vietnam also, and he said many do join the military to support and defend our country. He also said once you are in the "stuff" you fight for your survival and the survival of your buddies. That is pretty much what I have always heard from everyone I have known that has been in combat.

[LZ_Bayonet]

"The main plot line is that the nation was broke, and would have to sue for peace with the Japanese (right) if we didn't generate more money, quickly, through war bond sales.

From my recollection of articles on this subject, the purpose of bonds was also to fight the threat of inflation. i.e. there was full employment and a limited supply of goods available for purchase

[Tammy8]

I have been around a lot of military men too; several in my family and many friends- I have never noticed the lack of talk as you say, at least around those they are comfortable with. I will say I do notice if they think someone can't relate to what they are saying or isn't really interested they will clam up pretty good. I know hubby is funny that way- he talks pretty freely about his experiences but if someone says something like "so tell me what it was really like in Vietnam" or makes a dumb remark and you can tell they are insincere he will blow them off with some smart-a$$ comment.

[backtothestreets]

My reflections of our WWII history may seem empty to many in these times. We are a nation divided today. There is an aversion of many to claim our victories in WWII as conservative, but they were not. It was a shining moment of patriotism when conservative, liberal, Democrat and Republican stood shoulder-to-shoulder, and too often died that way too. Their love of country transcended politics.

WWII came upon our nation during a generation of strong liberalism in our history. Republicans and conservatives led the vanguard against early efforts to involve our nation in the European war. But the Republicans and conservatives were not alone, many Democrats wanted to avoid war too. Until the attack on Pearl Harbor approximately 80% of our population opposed our involvement in the war. This at a time when liberal Democrats held control of both houses of Congress.

Even after the attack on Pearl Harbor and FDR's address to Congress for a declaration of war, it was only against Japan. It took Hitler's declaration of war against the USA days later to get FDR to address Congress a second time that week for another declaration of war on the European front.

What differs today is that all encompassing patriotism. We lack a leadership that can bind our nation as one in patriotism. Patriotism has less to do with waving our flag, reciting a pledge, or spending money to power the economy, and more with protecting our great heritage. It is a heritage built upon freedom, not liberalism or conservatism, but the freedom to choose liberal, conservative, or anywhere in between.

It should be noted that as our men returned from the European and Pacific wars the battles had change a great many to the extent many liberal Democrats suffered losses in both houses of Congress. It was not politics that made these one-time liberal fighting men into voting conservatives. It was the experience of self-dependence and dependence upon those in their immediate proximity during the combat of war that molded them.

Much like the adversaries we faced in WWII, our adversaries today seek to limit freedom. Regardless of ones religious convictions, our nation stands by the freedom of every individual to read a Bible, or choose not to. It is the same with any book, and this free exchange of knowledge is quite liberal in the eyes of our adversaries.

So now I look with a heavy heart upon our nation, kept free with the blood and guts of young men of various political persuasions and party affiliation, and the one element that bound them together, patriotism for a way of life worthy of patriots, and I wonder who will lead us to the patriotism of freedom in this hour of need. May we find it again as our enemies are gathering strength even now.

I find the history of Great Britain a strength right now. As with conservatives in the USA, conservatives in the UK, led by Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, sought to avoid war at all costs. It was as though a divine covenant had a leader ready in the wings to stir the patriotism of his countrymen when war erupted. Winston Churchill happened to be a conservative as was Chamberlain, but he was a patriot first and foremost. Never did he place politics above his patriotism.

[garandgal]

We lack a leadership that can bind our nation as one in patriotism.

I've been saying the same for several years. "It" was there, after 9/11; just as it was after Pearl Harbor...this administration blew it by telling the American public to "go shopping."

FWIW, I have a collection of hundreds of WWII homefront items. I know exactly what you are talking about.

[Bender2]

Re: "I knew the story of Ira Hayes long ago. I remember an ancient Johnny Cash song that told the tragic story."

Ira Hayes,
Ira Hayes

CHORUS:
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Gather round me people there's a story I would tell
About a brave young Indian you should remember well
From the land of the Pima Indian
A proud and noble band
Who farmed the Phoenix valley in Arizona land

Down the ditches for a thousand years
The water grew Ira's peoples' crops
'Till the white man stole the water rights
And the sparklin' water stopped

Now Ira's folks were hungry
And their land grew crops of weeds
When war came, Ira volunteered
And forgot the white man's greed

CHORUS:
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war


There they battled up Iwo Jima's hill,
Two hundred and fifty men
But only twenty-seven lived to walk back down again

And when the fight was over
And when Old Glory raised
Among the men who held it high
Was the Indian, Ira Hayes

CHORUS:
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Ira returned a hero
Celebrated through the land
He was wined and speeched and honored;
Everybody shook his hand

But he was just a Pima Indian
No water, no crops, no chance
At home nobody cared what Ira'd done
And when did the Indians dance

CHORUS:
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Then Ira started drinkin' hard;
Jail was often his home
They'd let him raise the flag and lower it
like you'd throw a dog a bone!

He died drunk one mornin'
Alone in the land he fought to save
Two inches of water in a lonely ditch
Was a grave for Ira Hayes

CHORUS:
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Yeah, call him drunken Ira Hayes
But his land is just as dry
And his ghost is lyin' thirsty
In the ditch where Ira died

Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

I hate it when I can't sleep....

[Dajjal]

Nice site.

http://www.iwojima.com

[Uriah_lost]

Read this review,
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2006/10/weekend_box_off_27.html ,
then decide if you want to see it.

For my money, "The Great Raid" is the best WWII movie to be made recently.

[carlr]

Hey Bender,how`s it going?

[Tarnsman]

Saw it. Liked it, sort of. Too disjointed in its story telling for my liking. BTW, this story (following the three men after the flag raising) was done before in the 50's or early 60's I believe. Anyway, wish Clint had spent more time on Iwo and spent more time with the three "that didn't make it", showing us stuff to explain Ira Hayes broke down when he met Mike's mom and why he was so tormented. Could have been a contender.

[Patton@Bastogne]

.


LS,


Flags of Our Fathers


Movie Positives:

1) Shows in great detail the "operational" aspects of the Iwo Jima campaign, as Spielburg did (expertly) in Saving Private Ryan.

2) Celebrates (wonderfully) the bravery and incredible sacrifice of the Navy and Marines at Iwo Jima.

3) NOW people will understand better WHY we dropped two atomic bombs on Japan ... after seeing what happens to "Iggy" ... you understand that decision even better.

4) You leave the movie awed at what took place, especially the Naval Fleet scenes. Absolutely Incredible.



Movie Negatives: A Genuine Shakespearean Tragedy

1) Guilt and personal failure flows like Niagra Falls for many of the characters, especially the Three Marines who survived the second flag raising.

2) Iwo Jima was a spectacular strategic success for the United Staes in WWII.

Clint Eastwood almost looks to be trying to "repaint history" by quasi comparing it to the 1968 Tet Offensive.

3) This is the FIRST time I've heard the allegation about a financially bankrupt United States, ALMOST on the verge of signing a peace agreement with Japan in the Spring of 1945.

Frankly, I'm not sure I believe it.

The U.S. had clobbered the Japs at Midway, Philipines, and several (retaken) islands by Spring 1945. The British were having success with pushing Japan back from India. Tokyo and other major Japs cities were in flames.

Japan was clearly losing WWII by Spring 1945.


I saw it Friday afternoon, and have plans to take my two teenaged sons on Saturday.

But we'll only see it once, as opposed to the couyple of times that I'd expected.





Patton-at-Bastogne

"May God and His Angels Guard Your Sacred Throne, and May You Long Become It."

Shakespeare, Henry V, Act I, Scene II


.

[backtothestreets]

You're so right about the "go shopping" theme. That riled me no end. I was also upset airlines on the verge of bankruptcy on 9-10 were bailed out in the wake of 9-11. Dang, now I'm revved up. I didn't like the idea of our nation paying such large sums to the surviving families of 9-11 victims. Any payments due them should have come from the confiscated assets of the attackers. No such accommodations were afforded the families of the 35 people killed in the Japanese sinking of the S.S. Cynthia Olson, off the coast of San Francisco on December 7, 1941 (the same day Pearl Harbor was struck), the families of the 68 civilians killed in the Pearl Harbor attack, nor the Oregon women and five children killed years later by a Japanese Fugo balloon during WWII.

As for 9-11 itself, I have never in my lifetime seen our country so united as one people ready to fight as it was in the wake of the 9-11 attacks. It was patriotism that raised us as one, and it was politics that divided us again. FDR and Churchill had the wisdom to ride the patriotic wave with the confidence their domestic policies would follow along.

This Administration and Congress also disappointed me when they decided not to have a war bond campaign. Sure we could borrow money to fund the war, but war bonds and war stamps allow average citizens to fight the war as best they could from the home front. Creating a bond between the military and civilian population is advantageous. Shunning citizen participation in the war effort at home is never a good idea. The president and Congress rubbed salt in the wound when they made participation in the new version of civil defense membership by government invitation only. They lost many tens of millions of eyes and ears with that decision.

I'm struck by a couple more WWII observations. Our nation lost over 400,000 service members and 11,000 civilians in less than four years, and at a time our population was less than our population today (136 million at the time) Their battle losses were often counted by the hundreds a day, yet the military and nation endured.

WWII would have been either lost or fought on our soil if not for the draft.

Lastly, the WWII veterans really weren't ones to toot their own horn. It was years after the building and dedication of memorials for our fallen service members from the Korean and Viet Nam wars before WWII veterans were accorded such honor. Many of their number had succumbed to old age before they were honored.

[stevem]

I hate it when I can't sleep....

I had some of those verses bouning around in the back of my head during some of the scenes in the movie. When I was a kid my folks had that song on an LP. I think we played it a thousand times...

[Texas_shutterbug]

The reviewer on Fox said the same thing about it being hard to follow.

And while I think that my uncles went to war for our nation, when listening to them tell "their stories," it was obvious that in the thick of the battle they were fighting for their buddies and their own lives.

I don't think it's an "either/or" situation.

[TADSLOS]

The Marines were segregated in WWII.

That's true, until they hit the volcanic sand of Iwo's beaches. The chaotic fighting on Iwo was, no doubt, a truly unexpected forced integration measure of relatively short duration. Skin color probably didn't matter much at that point, at least to the Marines on the ground.

[LS]

To a great extent, I went to the movie because of Siegel's review. And I was somewhat disappointed.

[LS]

Yes, I stayed throughout the credits. Very moving, ending with the famous photo. BTW, Clint Eastwood wrote the music, too. Can't say that it was particularly inspiring.

[LS]

Yep. In one speech to the flag-raisers, the DoWar guy said that they would run out of money in a few weeks.

Right.

[LS]

I did see that there was an Iceland unit. BTW, the shots of the fleet as it conducted its bombardment of the island were overwhelming. You realize there was no way in hell Japan could have ever won the war.