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Ice store at Moon's South Pole is a myth: study
AFP ^ | 10/19/06

Posted on 10/19/2006 6:41:12 AM PDT by presidio9

Hopes that the Moon's South Pole has a vast hoard of ice that could be used to establish a lunar colony are sadly unfounded, a new study says.

In 1994, radar echoes sent back in an experiment involving a US orbiter called Clementine appeared to show that a treasure trove of frozen water lay below the dust in craters near the lunar South Pole that were permanently shaded from the Sun.

If so, such a find would be an invaluable boost to colonisation, as the ice could be used to provide water as well as hydrogen as fuel. NASA is looking closely at the South Pole as a potential site for the United States' return mission to the Moon, scheduled to take place by 2020.

But a paper published in the British science journal Nature on Thursday by a US team says the Clementine data most probably was misinterpreted.

Donald Campbell of Washington's Smithsonian Institution and colleagues collected radar images of the Moon's South Pole to a resolution of 20 metres (65 feet), looking especially at Shackleton crater, which had generated most interest.

The team found that a particular radar signature called the circular polarization ratio -- which in the Clementine experiment was taken to indicate thick deposits of ice -- could also be created by echoes from the rough terrain and walls of impact craters.

The signature was found in both sunny and permanently shady areas of crater, which suggests that the reflection comes from rocky debris, not thick ice deposits.

If there is any ice at the South Pole, it probably comes from tiny, scattered grains that probably account for only one or two percent of the local dust, the authors suggest.

"Any planning for future exploitation of hydrogen at the Moon's South Pole should be constrained by this low average abundance rather than by the expectation of localised deposits at higher concentrations," the paper says soberly.

The research involved sending a radar signal from the Arecibo telescope in Puerto Rico. The signal hit the southern lunar region and the reflection was picked up by the Green Bank Telescope in West Virginia.


TOPICS: Extended News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: brianboitano; getchoasstomahz; headygoodness; icepirates; wwbbd
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To: Old Student
Drop enough small asteroids on Mars, (and I'm talking a LOT of them!) and increase the mass while building up the gas pressure and temp...

Of course if you increase the mass of the Moon, you will change the orbital characteristics (and climate, seasons, tides, etc.) of Earth. That's not a trade I want to make.

41 posted on 10/19/2006 12:00:42 PM PDT by seowulf
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To: seowulf

Not only did I not suggest doing this to the moon, the post you quoted me on says specifically "Mars" so I'm not sure where you're going. We were talking about getting Mars to hold on to an atmosphere. The Moon is better off without one, for my purposes. Not to mention that it's lower gravity is a positive, as well. Enough gravity to keep stuff where you put it, not enough to keep from getting to someplace else relatively easily.


42 posted on 10/19/2006 2:39:58 PM PDT by Old Student (We have a name for the people who think indiscriminate killing is fine. They're called "The Bad Guys)
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To: RightWhale; Brett66; xrp; gdc314; anymouse; NonZeroSum; jimkress; discostu; The_Victor; ...

43 posted on 10/19/2006 6:33:29 PM PDT by KevinDavis (Nancy you ignorant Slut!!!!!)
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To: Junior
why don't we just build a really big siphon hose and....HEHE.
44 posted on 10/19/2006 6:43:24 PM PDT by phoenix0468 (http://www.mylocalforum.com -- Go Speak Your Mind.)
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To: presidio9

45 posted on 10/19/2006 7:20:41 PM PDT by free_at_jsl.com
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To: Old Student

I don't think there's enough mass in all the asteroids, combined, to raise Mars' mass that much.

[ http://www.nineplanets.org/earth.html ] Earth mass: 5.972e24 kg

[ http://www.nineplanets.org/mars.html ] Mars mass: 6.4219e23 kg

Okay, now I'm 90 per cent sure.


46 posted on 10/19/2006 7:27:06 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Dhimmicrati delenda est! https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: presidio9
Water? Its between the moonbase and the larger than safe nuclear waste dump...


47 posted on 10/19/2006 7:37:02 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Paradox

Wouldn't the ice burn up before it gets into space? And if it is going to be shielded by the rocket, that would seem to make it very expensive.


48 posted on 10/19/2006 7:49:19 PM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( The BBC HYS is cruddy: many typed comments and not one posted (non-offensive).)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu

Shoot.

And I just answered a 'help wanted' email -- they wanted somebody to process payments to the ice store.

Hey, there aren't even any eskimos to buy it down there, are there?


49 posted on 10/19/2006 7:52:25 PM PDT by unspun (What do you think? Please think, before you answer.)
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To: american_ranger
Solar energy could be used for hydrolysis; When hydrogen burns, it is recombined with oxygen to make water; some extra oxygen could be used for breathing (and extra hydrogen could be used in other applications or dumped). It is not such an absurd statement.
50 posted on 10/19/2006 7:52:26 PM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu ( The BBC HYS is cruddy: many typed comments and not one posted (non-offensive).)
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To: Old Student
...the post you quoted me on says specifically "Mars" so I'm not sure where you're going.

Now I'm not so sure either. I must have had "Moon" on the mind. I guess that makes me a lunatic.

51 posted on 10/19/2006 8:10:48 PM PDT by seowulf
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To: presidio9
Two percent by mass is really quite good. I was part of a study that looked at 0.1, 1, and 10% by mass, and 1% is a pretty rich strike. The problem is all the mass you have to emplace on the moon to utilize the water. You need "lunar" earthmoving equipment suited to high vacuum and dusty regolith, spares, mechanics, a big power source (a reactor would be best), lots of food, medicine, a complete infirmary, etc, etc,...if you intend for people to be part of the process. Trying to do it robotically has its own problems but sending a human crew adds cost and mass.

What's the water for? Well, for life support, or for electrolyzing into propellants--you need LOTS of power for that--and then you have to lift the propellants back into orbit. Any payoff comes from the more modest gravity well of the Moon.

The payoff--if there is one--is S-L-O-W.

--Boris

52 posted on 10/19/2006 8:44:55 PM PDT by boris (The deadliest weapon of mass destruction in history is a leftist with a word processor.)
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To: seowulf
"I guess that makes me a lunatic."

It's ok. Don't feel like the lone stranger, there, either. I've always been a lunatic, myself...
53 posted on 10/20/2006 5:37:38 AM PDT by Old Student (We have a name for the people who think indiscriminate killing is fine. They're called "The Bad Guys)
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To: american_ranger
We need energy to seperate the hydrogen and oxygen in water, Then we need oxygen to let hydrogen burn. But we breathed some of the oxygen so it is not available to burn."

First, the sun is readily available as the base source of consumable energy. Fairly unlimited supply.

Second, whether we breathe it or burn it, the oxygen and hydrogen are not lost, they are transferred to a new compound, CO2 and H2O. The basic law of conservation of matter. Transforming them back into oxygen and hydrogen is again a question of the application of energy.

The supply of base elements is the major factor in living on the moon, not the supply of energy. Energy provides the means to manipulate the elements as needed.

54 posted on 10/20/2006 6:00:12 AM PDT by CMAC51
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To: SunkenCiv
We don't have to match Earth's mass. Just enough to hold an atmosphere. Venus is 1.1e24 kg smaller than earth, and it holds an atmosphere just fine! I don't have the math to figure out how much mass we'd need, but I'm sure someone out there does. About 3e16 kg of it is hanging there in orbit right around Mars, for that matter. Several of the larger moons of Jupiter are within about 1 order of magnitude of the mass needed to match Earths, for that matter. We can do it. Not easily or quickly, but we can.
55 posted on 10/20/2006 6:15:36 AM PDT by Old Student (We have a name for the people who think indiscriminate killing is fine. They're called "The Bad Guys)
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To: american_ranger

It might be of interest to note that the moon appears to be 30% oxygen by weight. The missing element is hydrogen of which there are traces only.


56 posted on 10/20/2006 9:06:45 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: Old Student

If we added Mercury (which is denser than Mars but smaller obviously) to Mars, the little virtual calculator gizmo I've got here puts the combined mass at 9.7219E23, which is 16 per cent of the Earth's. Venus' mass is 81 per cent that of Earth. There really isn't any way to find enough material to make Mars like the Earth.

If there were lots of water available to bring Mars' mass to that of the Earth (and there could be), Mars could be converted to a planet with a planetary ocean, Earthlike atmosphere (synthesized from frozen gases imported from the outer Solar System, which is where the water could be lurking), and floating cities for humans. The final diameter of water-covered Mars would be larger than that of Earth, because of lower density.

Current Mars is just under 11 per cent the mass of Earth. Moving nearly 90 per cent of the Earth's mass is well in the future. IOW, the only practical prospect for the foreseeable is to build habitrail-style habitats on Earth (could be just inflatable structures) and deploy them on Mars, inflating them with the Earthlike atmospheric mixture, and staying indoors. :')


57 posted on 10/20/2006 9:31:31 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Dhimmicrati delenda est! https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: presidio9
Ice store at Moon's South Pole is a myth: study

You mean there's no ozone hole on the moon?

58 posted on 10/20/2006 9:34:17 AM PDT by N. Theknow ((Kennedys - Can't drive, can't fly, can't ski, can't skipper a boat - But they know what's best.))
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To: N. Theknow

The moon is an entire ozone hole. Pole to pole.


59 posted on 10/20/2006 9:35:35 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: SunkenCiv

and staying indoors.

60 posted on 10/20/2006 9:44:31 AM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does.)
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