Jurors want reprimand for Navy chaplain

Associated Press ^ | Sep. 14, 2006 | SONJA BARISIC

[CWOJackson]

The military and the various faith leaderships go to very great lengths to insure that a Chaplain is very aware of their "duties" to the military. If this Chaplain could not live up to his military obligations, which he took an oath before God to obey, then he deserves exactly what he gets.

[BeHoldAPaleHorse]

Where do you come up with your outlandish thoughts on how the military happens.

From what the folks who have never served a day in their lives--unlike me and thee--are saying should be happening on a daily basis as long as the chaplain is from a religion they happen to like.

[BeHoldAPaleHorse]

Please tell me you are not serious. I cannot believe you do not care about rules. This is not what the Bible intended. I am stunned by your post. I hope you were just being sarcastic.

I am convinced that he is a liberal's caricature of what liberals think FReepers are like.

[JCEccles]

Nonsense.

[CWOJackson]

He is trying the same thing Watada did...and suffering a similar fate.

[JCEccles]

Who cares what liberals think?

Amswer: Other liberals.

[JCEccles]

If I understand your argument, it is: conservatives should be more like liberals.

No thanks.

[JCEccles]

He did a brave thing for entirely moral reasons.

It was also a violation of an order. And for that he has been duly found guilty and adjudged worthy of punishment. Now he needs to step up smartly and accept his punishment. I think he will do that.

That doesn't diminish the bravery and morality of the act.

[CWOJackson]

Nor does it diminish the stupidity of the act.

[BeHoldAPaleHorse]

If I understand your argument, it is: conservatives should be more like liberals.

Well, you didn't understand my argument.

Weren't you the guy who told the draft board he was a faggot and then ran to Canada until Carter gave you an amnesty, or am I thinking of another chickenhawk FReeper?

[BeHoldAPaleHorse]

Now he needs to step up smartly and accept his punishment. I think he will do that.

Based on his conduct to date--namely, in continuously "doubling down" on a lousy bet, all in the name of keeping his name visible . . . methinks he'll start another PR campaign about how he's a "martyr."

[usmcobra]

But if for reasons of political correctness, his beliefs are suppressed by an illegal order doesn't that negate his reasons for serving in the Navy.

Let's look at this another way, saying he cannot say "Jesus", "Our Lord", or "God" when in uniform and outside of a chapel would be an illegal order, just as it would be an illegal order to forbid him from praying or preaching while in uniform, his reason for being in uniform is to pray and preach to anyone that that will hear God's message.

What most here are suggesting is that by him praying in uniform it was a political act, it is his religious purpose for wearing the uniform. A chaplain's uniform is as much his religious garb just as a priest that wears a cassock.

Would it be an illegal order if the Navy to him to do something that was contrary to his faith, say for instance, telling a rabbi to bless unkosher food, or requiring a catholic priest to be married in order to serve at a certain posting?

Or to kill an enemy?

Or to deny his religious services to any one because he is wearing the uniform of a Navy Chaplain?

Service in the military is a two way street,in promising to serve, those serving have the right to expect that they will not be ordered to perform those things that are illegal under the Laws of this country, and as in the case of conscientious objectors and Chaplains they have the right to expect that they will not be required to do those things that go against their beliefs while they serve.

[CWOJackson]

You leave the tracks right in the first sentence. There was nothing whatsoever illegal about the order.

[usmcobra]

There is nothing illegal about ordering a Chaplain not to pray while in uniform.

I might be a little rusty on the UCMJ but I don't believe that anywhere in it does it forbid the free and open practise of religion in the military.

Please Correct me if I am wrong.

The same holds true for the U. S. Constitution.

[CWOJackson]

You're conveniently forgetting "where" the Chaplain intended to wear his uniform.

[usmcobra]

No, I'm not. It is unimportant. He can wear it 24/7/365 and even during services if he wants to, it is the religious grab he chose to wear and as long as the uniform he wears for the U.S. Navy is adorned with religious symbols it is his religious garb to wear.

It's what the Navy commissioned him to do in the first place.

Now if the Navy wants to do away with the Chaplains, it has the legal right to do so, but so long as his uniform requires religious symbols on it, everytime he appears in it he is doing so for religious purposes.

[Melas]

The UCMJ forbids attending ANY political function in uniform. The fact that the chaplain also prayed while in attendance isn't even pertinent.

[CWOJackson]

It is a uniform of the United States Navy, and can only be worn in the manner as prescribed by the United States Navy. He elected to deliberately disobey orders and will justly pay for his misconduct. I seriously doubt that the consequences end there.

[steve-b]

Military discipline is "nonsense" in your world....

[usmcobra]

There is a simple solution to this argument. Disband the Chaplains Corps and get rid of all the Chaplains.

That way The Navy will never have to worry about the ACLU suing it because some Chaplain wearing a uniform said "Jesus" or read from the Bible outside of his Chapel.

And remember it only takes one case.

And isn't that what is really at the core of this man's argument, that the very reason he wears the Uniform of a chaplain is being suppressed to prevent the ACLU from suing the United States Navy for freely allowing religion to be practised in it's ranks.

Navy Chaplain (Commender) Robert Beltram reads from the New Testament during the Armed Forces Funeral for the Pentagon Victims, September 12, 2002.

Under the very orders this chaplain is protesting, this event could not happen and the words used from the bible could not be spoken in uniform as this chaplain is doing here.