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Jurors want reprimand for Navy chaplain
Associated Press ^ | Sep. 14, 2006 | SONJA BARISIC

Posted on 09/14/2006 10:29:02 AM PDT by Dubya

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To: CWOJackson

I wonder what they would make of a Muslim chaplain who acted like Klingenschmitt?


201 posted on 09/18/2006 10:24:16 AM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse

I have no doubt that would be a different story; blindfold, last cigarette, that sort of thing.


202 posted on 09/18/2006 10:25:53 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse; CWOJackson

I have asked that question again and again, but they have refused to answer.

Undoubtedly, this is because the only honest answer they could give would expose their agenda for what it truly is - special rights for their own religion.


203 posted on 09/18/2006 11:28:40 AM PDT by highball (Proud to announce the birth of little Highball, Junior - Feb. 7, 2006!)
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To: CWOJackson
Some people think LT Watada is a hero also.

An excellent point.

Obviously, Klingenschmitt's supporters have to support Watada as well....

204 posted on 09/18/2006 11:33:55 AM PDT by highball (Proud to announce the birth of little Highball, Junior - Feb. 7, 2006!)
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To: Non-Sequitur; highball; BeHoldAPaleHorse

It is illegal because it punishes him for exercising his freedom of religion and forces him to pray in a way that wouldn't offend the worst hard core atheist or the ACLU.

I'm not going to continue to argue this point, but as a parting shot I'll offer this, I had always assumed that the last bit of religious freedoms this country would lose to the ACLU would be in the ranks of this nation's Military Chaplains.

About that at least I know I was wrong.


205 posted on 09/19/2006 6:34:15 AM PDT by usmcobra (I sing Karaoke the way it was meant to be sung, drunk, badly and in Japanese, that why I don't sing.)
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To: usmcobra

"It is illegal because it punishes him for exercising his freedom of religion..."

NO, he's being punished for wearing a military uniform to a political rally. What offends me is that the 'good chaplain' LIES and pretends it was a religious service, not a rally.

"...and forces him to pray in a way that wouldn't offend the worst hard core atheist or the ACLU."

Only true at mandatory formations, with service members forced to attend. As a service member, I have no desire to be forced to go to a change of command, and then hear some muzzy chaplain screaming 'Allah Akbar!'

When you join the military, you give up some of your rights. That is true for line members, like myself, and for chaplains. If I had been on the board, I'd have tried to throw this lying, self-serving 'it's all about me' Chaplain out on his lying butt!


206 posted on 09/19/2006 7:17:01 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I'm agnostic on evolution, but sit ups are from Hell!)
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To: RexBeach

I guess it's ok if your serving guest in military uniform at a Clinton Gala, was that a political event?


207 posted on 09/19/2006 7:24:57 AM PDT by Dadofmany
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To: usmcobra
About that at least I know I was wrong.

As has been pointed out above, you're also wrong about the basic facts of this case.

It's probably better that you don't "continue to argue this point", at least until you familiarize yourself with the facts.

208 posted on 09/19/2006 7:27:29 AM PDT by highball (Proud to announce the birth of little Highball, Junior - Feb. 7, 2006!)
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To: Dadofmany
I guess it's ok if your serving guest in military uniform at a Clinton Gala, was that a political event?

I really hope that's not your best argument.

Surely you admit that there is a difference between:

And that the difference between them is not a subtle one?

209 posted on 09/19/2006 7:43:30 AM PDT by highball (Proud to announce the birth of little Highball, Junior - Feb. 7, 2006!)
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To: usmcobra
OK, gut check time:

You are standing in formation for a change of command ceremony; i.e., this is a MANDATORY event, and non-attendance will put you in an AWOL status. The chaplain giving the invocation is a Muslim.

He gives you an Islamic prayer and an extended recitation from the Koran about how infidels are going to hell.

Are you OK with the scenario I have laid out? Yes, or no--are you OK with it?

210 posted on 09/19/2006 8:29:43 AM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: usmcobra
It is illegal because it punishes him for exercising his freedom of religion and forces him to pray in a way that wouldn't offend the worst hard core atheist or the ACLU.

That may be your interpretation, but it ignores the fact that Klingenschmitt was not charged with violating that regulation. He was punished for wearing his uniform to a political demonstration when he was ordered not to. And there is nothing illegal or improper in that order.

211 posted on 09/19/2006 10:24:05 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse

with respect to this, "You have managed to insult those whose bravery and self-sacrifice stand in marked contrast to Chaplain Klingenschmitt's "it's all about ME!" attitude" I say: oh, nonsense and rubbish.

Klingenschmitt has suffered personal loss for daring to obey his commander - God - above the dictates of a military administrator who never had the power to censor prayer yet has taken it upon himself to do so. It is a disgrace to call a man's prayer "political lobbying". All the man did was pray. He didn't talk to reporters. He said precisely nothing else besides the prayer while in uniform.

"America does not have a state religion". Yes it does.
87% of the people are Christian. 2% are Jewish. The
monuments of our capitol are riddled with Christian and
Jewish quotes, Biblical citations. But it is the law of
the land that Christian and Jewish doctrines are to be
coercively expunged from the public sector. It is the law
of the courts that Christian and Jewish laws are to be
removed from schools. It is now the law of the Navy that
Christian prayer may be censored at the Secretary's will.
The official and legally established religion of the
United States of America is anti-Christianity. This is
legally accepted, supported, and practiced. In keeping
with this established religion, a Chaplain has been
court-martialed for refusing to obey the state religion.
For openly supporting the spirit of the Consitution in
defiance of this state religion, I have upheld the valor
of the medal winners, pointing out a man who is willing
to face personal destruction for the sake of resisting
a tyrannical and anti-religious-freedom power trying to
take away his right to free conscience.

"Chaplain Klingenschmitt is not restricted from praying in the name of Jesus Christ at worship services." You are openly wrong. The new restriction and power is that the Navy Secretary has taken for himself the authority to arbitrarily define when "worship services" exist and when they do not. Neat little trick, eh? A man's conscience, which previously defined when he was worshipping and when he was not, has been usurped. the Navy Sec. has now decreed that the Chaplain worships only 1 hour a week! Sunday morning! And so the large restriction has been placed.
That is the evil.

"He is restricted--as are ALL chaplains, including Jewish and Muslim chaplains--from offering sectarian prayers at mandatory functions" -- You write this as though it were good to destroy the freedom of the Chaplain's conscience so that he might be forced to conform to the government religion which mandates neutered prayers? You are deeply concerned about passive people being offended by the free expression of an active person's religion. But it is impossible to police the activiites of others in order to ensure the non-offense of all - unless you completely control all speech at all times. You are totally unworried, on the other hand, by the religious coercion forced on the Chaplain, the active participant in religion, not the spectator. Offending and restricting him is fine so that some passive people who agree with censorship might not be offended. But where is your consideration of the people who are offended by the censorship? Why is it OK to offend people by editing out their faith, leaving only the government approved faith?


212 posted on 09/21/2006 9:30:19 PM PDT by FarRockaway (This despotic gerrymander a greater freedom than what once was?)
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To: FarRockaway
Klingenschmitt has suffered personal loss for daring to obey his commander - God - above the dictates of a military administrator who never had the power to censor prayer yet has taken it upon himself to do so.

If he cannot obey the orders given to him by the Navy, he needs to find something else to do for a living.

It is a disgrace to call a man's prayer "political lobbying". All the man did was pray. He didn't talk to reporters. He said precisely nothing else besides the prayer while in uniform.

The entire purpose of the event was to lobby the President for a change in policy. He is free to do that in civilian attire. He is not free to do that in uniform.

"America does not have a state religion". Yes it does.

Go back and reread the Establishment Clause.

87% of the people are Christian. 2% are Jewish.

And 100% of the people have the inherent right to not be forced to be present and attentive to prosletyzation for a religion that they disagree with.

Would you be OK with a Muslim chaplain, at a mandatory formation, offering Islamic-specific prayers and/or readings from the Koran?

BTW, I keep asking that question. I never get an answer.

The monuments of our capitol are riddled with Christian and Jewish quotes, Biblical citations.

But it is the law of the land that Christian and Jewish doctrines are to be coercively expunged from the public sector. It is the law of the courts that Christian and Jewish laws are to be removed from schools. It is now the law of the Navy that Christian prayer may be censored at the Secretary's will.

The Secretary of the Navy also

The official and legally established religion of the United States of America is anti-Christianity.

It is also, by that construction, anti-Islam, anti-Mormon, anti-Buddhist, and anti-a-bunch-of-other-religions-too.

This is legally accepted, supported, and practiced. In keeping with this established religion, a Chaplain has been court-martialed for refusing to obey the state religion.

Another candidate for:

For openly supporting the spirit of the Consitution in defiance of this state religion, I have upheld the valor of the medal winners, pointing out a man who is willing to face personal destruction for the sake of resisting a tyrannical and anti-religious-freedom power trying to take away his right to free conscience.

Again, let's change the faith in question: it's a Muslim chaplain, offering Islamic prayers.

Still OK with forcing the sailors to stand there and listen, or will you scream bloody murder about the Christian sailors' RIGHT to not be prosletyzed by a Muslim backed with the authority of the commanding officer? Will I ever get a straight-up answer to that question, or will I continue to get a deafening silence?

"Chaplain Klingenschmitt is not restricted from praying in the name of Jesus Christ at worship services." You are openly wrong. The new restriction and power is that the Navy Secretary has taken for himself the authority to arbitrarily define when "worship services" exist and when they do not.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the difference is

Neat little trick, eh? A man's conscience, which previously defined when he was worshipping and when he was not, has been usurped.

A change of command ceremony is a worship service?

the Navy Sec. has now decreed that the Chaplain worships only 1 hour a week! Sunday morning! And so the large restriction has been placed. That is the evil.

"He is restricted--as are ALL chaplains, including Jewish and Muslim chaplains--from offering sectarian prayers at mandatory functions" -- You write this as though it were good to destroy the freedom of the Chaplain's conscience so that he might be forced to conform to the government religion which mandates neutered prayers?

He is free to offer a prayer, or not offer a prayer. If he cannot offer a prayer within the guidelines of the Secretary of the Navy's instruction, he can always say, "Sir, I can't offer a prayer of that nature in good conscience, could you find someone else, please?"

And the commanding officer would go and find someone else.

You are deeply concerned about passive people being offended by the free expression of an active person's religion.

Those passive people are there, and participating in that ceremony, because they have been ordered to do so, and may be put in jail for disobeying that order.

But it is impossible to police the activiites of others in order to ensure the non-offense of all - unless you completely control all speech at all times.

Are you OK with the notion that a pastor in your town can get the sheriff to round people up and hold them in his church, under penalty of jail time, while he preaches at them?

That is the closest civilian analogy

You are totally unworried, on the other hand, by the religious coercion forced on the Chaplain, the active participant in religion, not the spectator.

He has the option of not participating. The sailors in ranks don't have that same liberty.

Offending and restricting him is fine so that some passive people who agree with censorship might not be offended.

He has the option of just saying "no."

But where is your consideration of the people who are offended by the censorship?

Again, contemplate the difference between "voluntary" and "mandatory."

Why is it OK to offend people by editing out their faith, leaving only the government approved faith?

I will explain this to you once again.

The chaplain's participation in change of command ceremonies and the like--by offering the invocation--is voluntary; he is free to decline without penalty. The participation of the sailors in that ceremony is mandatory; they may get prison time for not being there, or for attempting to leave.

One is voluntary; one is mandatory.

213 posted on 09/22/2006 8:37:42 AM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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