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Jurors want reprimand for Navy chaplain
Associated Press ^ | Sep. 14, 2006 | SONJA BARISIC

Posted on 09/14/2006 10:29:02 AM PDT by Dubya

NORFOLK, Va. - A jury recommended Thursday that a Navy chaplain receive a letter of reprimand for disobeying an order by appearing in uniform at a political news conference at the White House.

The jury also recommended that Lt. Gordon Klingenschmitt forfeit $250 pay per month for a year but suggested that the monetary punishment be suspended.

Rear Adm. Frederic Ruhe, commander of the Navy's Mid-Atlantic Region, must decide whether to approve the recommendation.

The jury of five officers at Klingenschmitt's special court-martial determined Wednesday that he had disobeyed a superior officer's order prohibiting him from wearing his uniform during media appearances without prior permission.

Klingenschmitt said he believes he was punished for making a political speech in uniform because he prayed in Jesus' name. He had argued that he was allowed to wear his uniform if conducting a "bona fide worship service."

"I will continue to pray in Jesus' name, I will continue to worship in public and I will not be broken," he said Wednesday.

He said he would appeal the conviction and fight to remain a chaplain. He said senior naval officials had already decided to fire him before the March 30 event, which protested Navy policy requiring nondenominational prayers outside of religious services.

Last December, the chaplain went on an 18-day hunger strike in front of the White House over the right to invoke Jesus' name outside such services.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: firstamendment; klingenschmitt; militarychaplain; moralabsolutes; navychaplain
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To: xzins

Me thinks he picked the wrong battle to fight. And it is going to damage the "freedom of religion" fight that is going on in the military.


21 posted on 09/14/2006 2:16:58 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Dubya

They went easy on him. This Southern Baptist USAF officer would have been a lot harder.


22 posted on 09/14/2006 2:23:38 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I'm agnostic on evolution, but sit ups are from Hell!)
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To: highball

It seems that you've never read the constitution : congress shall make no laws respecting religious beliefs. A muslim chaplain has just as much right to express his beliefs, IN UNIFORM, as anyone else. When a person puts on his nation's military uniform he doesn't automatically become a god-hating atheist as you suggest. The hand of Jesus that saves him will also be upon you, in judgement. Rules, pride, arrogance...where will they be THEN?


23 posted on 09/14/2006 2:35:31 PM PDT by timer
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To: timer

Have you been in the military?


24 posted on 09/14/2006 2:46:41 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: timer
It seems that you've never read the constitution : congress shall make no laws respecting religious beliefs.

This isn't about beliefs; it's about specific elements of conduct.

Klingenschmitt appeared at a political rally in uniform. That is illegal. He verbally trashed his chain of command from President Bush on down. That is illegal. He disobeyed specific orders from his seniors in the chain of command. That is illegal. He chose to make a public spectacle of himself that was as worthy of the Pharisees that Jesus routinely condemned. That's not illegal in and of itself, but it was conduct unbecoming of an officer and a gentleman, so that's another illegal act.

With that said, Klingenschmitt got off very lightly, and should be loudly thanking Jesus for saving him from the consequences of disobeying orders he was forsworn to obey.

If one cannot obey an order that one dislikes, there's always the option of resigning one's commission.

25 posted on 09/14/2006 3:02:31 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: ansel12
Klingenschmitt said he believes he was punished for making a political speech in uniform because he prayed in Jesus' name.

Silly me -- I thought it was because the military had regulations against mixing the uniform with politics.

26 posted on 09/14/2006 3:04:20 PM PDT by steve-b (The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.)
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To: All

James 4:11 (New American Standard Bible)

11(A)Do not speak against one another, (B)brethren He who speaks against a brother or (C)judges his brother, speaks against (D)the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not (E)a doer of the law but a judge of it.
Cross references:

1. James 4:11 : 2 Cor 12:20; James 5:9; 1 Pet 2:1
2. James 4:11 : James 1:16; 5:7, 9, 10
3. James 4:11 : Matt 7:1; Rom 14:4
4. James 4:11 : James 2:8
5. James 4:11 : James 1:22


27 posted on 09/14/2006 3:04:39 PM PDT by Dubya (Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,but by me)
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To: Dubya

What's your point?


28 posted on 09/14/2006 3:06:01 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: aynrandfreak
This must be one of the Christian extremists Rosie was worried about.

The thing is, this sort of behavior (attacking the rules which were established to bolster the apolitical status of the military) in the name of Christianity makes Rosie's statement seem a bit more credible....

29 posted on 09/14/2006 3:07:59 PM PDT by steve-b (The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.)
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To: Dubya
"I will continue to pray in Jesus' name, I will continue to worship in public and I will not be broken," he said Wednesday.

I strongly suggest he do it as a civilian. He is clearly out of place wearing the uniform of the U.S. military.

30 posted on 09/14/2006 3:11:53 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: timer
This fellow has been persecuted for righteousness sake : whosoever stands by me publically will be saved, the rest are lost, so saith the Lord Jesus.

Whosoever violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation shalt be be punished as a court-martial may direct. So saith the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

31 posted on 09/14/2006 3:15:32 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
Whosoever violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation shalt be be punished as a court-martial may direct. So saith the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Amen.

32 posted on 09/14/2006 3:16:08 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: leilani

"He's in the military and he's obligated to follow orders."

He did not do anything that was illegal. Unless you mean to say that soldiers have to do anything that a commanding officer tells them? Then I guess murder and rape would be ok too, huh?


33 posted on 09/14/2006 3:16:20 PM PDT by sasafras (("Licentiousness destroyes order, and when chaos ensues, the yearning for order will destroy freedom)
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse

"lawful general order"

How is what he did unlawful?


34 posted on 09/14/2006 3:18:02 PM PDT by sasafras (("Licentiousness destroyes order, and when chaos ensues, the yearning for order will destroy freedom)
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To: sasafras
Unless you mean to say that soldiers have to do anything that a commanding officer tells them? Then I guess murder and rape would be ok too, huh?

What part of the phrase 'lawful general order or regulation' are you finding so hard to understand? Does rape or murder sound like a lawful order to you?

35 posted on 09/14/2006 3:23:17 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: sasafras
He did not do anything that was illegal.

Wearing a uniform at a political rally--illegal.

Disobeying specific written order from his admiral--illegal.

Verbally trashing his chain of command from the President downward--illegal.

Being a complete a$$hat in uniform--illegal ("conduct unbecoming of an officer and a gentleman").

Unless you mean to say that soldiers have to do anything that a commanding officer tells them?

There is a presumption of legality that has to be overcome with respect to being able to disobey an order. Being ordered to restrict his denominational prayers in uniform to actual worship services for his denomination is perfectly legal, as the Navy has to respect not only his rights, but the rights of sailors who may not believe as he does but are required to be present for events where he holds forth.

Then I guess murder and rape would be ok too, huh?

I see you are not one to let facts get in your way.

36 posted on 09/14/2006 3:23:37 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: timer

"The hand of Jesus that saves him will also be upon you, in judgement. Rules, pride, arrogance...where will they be THEN?"

Ewww...that sounds scary!!!


37 posted on 09/14/2006 3:23:56 PM PDT by Ganymede
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To: sasafras
How is what he did unlawful?

Because, by offering prayers specific to his denomination at public events where sailors are required to attend (as opposed to denominational worship services, which are voluntary in nature), he is violating the rights of those sailors who do not believe as he does.

Or would you be comfortable with a Muslim chaplain, with a captive audience of sailors that is there under penalty of court-martial, offering Islam-specific prayers?

38 posted on 09/14/2006 3:26:45 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: sasafras
He did not do anything that was illegal. Unless you mean to say that soldiers have to do anything that a commanding officer tells them? Then I guess murder and rape would be ok too, huh?

Are you stupid, or just ignorant? In the military, any lawful order given by a superior must be obeyed. Murder and rape cannot ever be considered a lawful order.

39 posted on 09/14/2006 3:27:06 PM PDT by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: sasafras
Oh, and furthermore, he appeared at a political rally in uniform--that is illegal. He disobeyed a lawful order (as already established), which is illegal. He verbally trashed the chain of command from President Bush downward, and that is bigtime illegal.

He got off very lightly.

40 posted on 09/14/2006 3:28:23 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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