Posted on 09/14/2006 10:29:02 AM PDT by Dubya
No, just someone who obviously has no concept of what the military is like.
You don't know much about the military, do you.
In many cases, the Constitution does NOT apply to us. I gave up my rights to free speech when I joined - as do all others. The courts have ruled on this many times, and have always found that Constitutional privileges do not apply to the military.
I also gave up my right to witness freely. I cannot have a subordinate come into my room and listen to me discuss Jesus. I cannot stand up in front of a mandatory formation and discuss Jesus. When I deploy to muslim countries, I cannot witness to the locals. I gave up these rights when I joined.
This POS Chaplain deliberately disobeyed lawful orders and wore his uniform to a political event. These issues have gone to the courts before. The Supreme Court wouldn't even take the case, if offered - it is already established law.
This fellow has been persecuted for righteousness sake : whosoever stands by me publically will be saved, the rest are lost, so saith the Lord Jesus.
Please tell me you are not serious. I cannot believe you do not care about rules. This is not what the Bible intended. I am stunned by your post. I hope you were just being sarcastic.
???? Please be more specific. Thanks!!!
Not true. A Muslim would have been convicted as well. Stop being emotional. If it makes you feel better some Female Sailor just got administratively separated a month ago for participating in a Gay Pride parade in uniform. She said she knew she was wrong and took the punishment. This Officer did the same thing and should take the minimum punishment given. Nobody is treated differently in a situation while wearing a uniform so don't try and say that the military plays favorites because that is not true.
Your argument should be more like fighting for the right to wear a uniform at an event. This has NOTHING to do with him saying a prayer. He could have went in jeans and a tee shirt with Jesus power on it and said the rosery to the entire group and would have been fine. Whe are you having a hard time with this comprehension? You clearly don't understand the military.
He was not following the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
How do you know that? Was Peter and Paul following the Holy Spirit? I read they put in jail for preaching Jesus.
This guy goes and wears a uniform to another event and he might just end up in jail. You cannot pick and choose what rules to follow and which ones not too. Do you seriously think that Jesus is proud of this guy?
"Would you be perfectly OK with a Muslim chaplain, at a mandatory command function, giving prayers to Allah and reciting suras from the Koran about all infidels are going to hell?"
Where do you come up with your outlandish thoughts on how the military happens. A Muslim Chaplain would NEVER do this. He would say "Thank you for this wonderful day today. I wish Commander so and so and his family a wonderful new adventures while he is commanding the USS NEVERSAIL. Oh and to the new Skipper Commander Wonderful and her family my they enjoy the new tour and have the necessary guidance to instil a high morale and whatever to successfully command the Sailors here. Amen.
That is pretty darn close to a prayer before the Change of Command. Where you come up with this Allah and blowing up stuff is just in your vivid imagination. I hope I save you from having a heart attack worrying about the Chaplains and what they may or may not say at a Change of Command or any other ceremony.
Some Simple Questions for you:
1) Are Chaplains regular officers or are they granted the rank of an officer as a courtesy?
2) Are Chaplians serving under any sort of enlistment contract with the armed forces or are they civilians serving in uniform paid by thier religious organizations to administer to the faith of those in uniform?
3) What does it take to become a chaplain in the Navy or the armed forces?
Why not?
Why not?
That's your response to officers disobeying orders? Why not?
Wow. I hope you're not in the Army.
You all miss the point entirely. This is nothing more than an in-your-face mutiny to the president by a group of navy brass : you're either a dithering politician or the CAPTAIN of the ship. A lot of people are watching this situation and they aren't all military guys like you. Many are little old ladies who read their bible every day and hear of a navy chaplain being persecuted for merely wearing his uniform to a white house prayer service. This is a red flag to a bull for them : eeevil ACLU types persecuting a fellow christian. If the president doesn't have the cahones to have these navy brass swinging from the yardarm SOON, he'll SOON be out of a job himself as those little old ladies as conservative christian soldiers for Bush....stay at home on election day...and military-hater pelosi is in as speaker because of it, then comes the impeachment trial as pay-back. Will you still be pounding your NAVAL REGULATIONS as the WORD OF GOD then?
btt
Yep, definitely a DU troll.
No conservative would actually post this.
1) Are Chaplains regular officers or are they granted the rank of an officer as a courtesy?
Chaplains serve in the military as a courtesy, and are given their rank accordingly. They have no command authority what so ever and are there to provide spiritual guidence.
2) Are Chaplians serving under any sort of enlistment contract with the armed forces or are they civilians serving in uniform paid by their religious organizations to administer to the faith of those in uniform?
Chaplains are Civilians serving in uniform for their religions and as such are protected as a noncombatant by the Geneva conventions(Third Convention, 12 August 1949, Chapter IV Art 33). A Chaplain cannot be held as a prisoner of war and must be released when captured. The Archdiocese for the Military Services provides all Roman Catholic Chaplains for the Armed Forces. At one time Chaplains were paid by groups like the Knights of Columbus, but today they are paid by the Government.
3) What does it take to become a chaplain in the Navy or the armed forces?
To be an Officer in the Army Chaplain Corps, you must obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement from your faith group. This endorsement should certify that you are:* A clergy person in your denomination or faith group.
* Qualified spiritually, morally, intellectually and emotionally to serve as a Chaplain in the Army.
* Sensitive to religious pluralism and able to provide for the free exercise of religion by all military personnel, their family members and civilians who work for the Army.
* Possess a baccalaureate degree of not less than 120 semester hours.
* Possess a master's degree in divinity or a graduate degree in theological studies, which includes at least 72 hours.
The Navy's regulation are Identical.
5.1. Ecclesiastical Certification of Clergy
5.1.1. To be considered for appointment to serve as a chaplain, clergy shall be certified by a religious faith group that the Department of Defense recognizes as an ecclesiastical endorsing organization. Certification of ecclesiastical endorsement shall attest that the applicant is as follows:
5.1.1.1. A fully qualified clergy person of the certifying faith group.
5.1.1.2. Willing to support directly or indirectly the free exercise of religion by all members of the Military Services, their dependents, and other DODD 1304.19, Sept. 18, 1993 2 authorized persons.
5.1.1.3. Educationally qualified for appointment as a chaplain by:
5.1.1.3.1. Possessing a baccalaureate degree of not less than 120 semester hours from an accredited college or university that is listed in the "Accredited Institutions of Post Secondary Education" (reference (f)), or from a school whose credits are accepted by an accredited college or university listed in the Directory, Association of Theological Schools Bulletin (reference (g)).
5.1.1.3.2. Having completed successfully 3 resident years of graduate professional study in theology or related subjects at an accredited graduate school (normally validated by the possession of a Master of Divinity degree or an equivalent degree) that leads to ecclesiastical certification as a member of the clergy fully qualified to perform the functions of a chaplain. That study shall be completed at an accredited graduate school listed in reference (f) or (g) or from a school whose credits are accepted by an accredited school listed in reference (f) or (g).
5.1.2. The required ecclesiastical certification shall be made on DD Form 2088, "Certificate of Ecclesiastical Endorsement" (enclosure 2).
5.1.3. Applicants for appointment as chaplain will meet the physical standards under reference (d) and be otherwise qualified to serve as commissioned officers under reference (e).
5.1.4. Chaplains whose initial or subsequent ecclesiastical endorsement is withdrawn shall lose their qualification to serve as chaplains and shall be processed in accordance with DoD Directive 1332.31 (reference (h)).
Personally I believe this chaplain had a fool for a lawyer or expects this case to be thrown out at a higher level upon review.
So now you are saying the TRUTH doesn't matter, just what some idiot little old ladies fed lies by the Chaplain and folks like yourself might do come election time.
Sorry. The truth matters. It's a pity this lying Chaplain hasn't figured that out.
And no, there aren't very many little old ladies who will vote democrat or stay home over this. But if they do, and we lose the election because of it, then their actions judge THEM - not the military or GWB.
Apparently you didn't understand what I was talking about. My comment had nothing to do with this one chaplain's appearance at a protest whether in uniform or civvies.
What irritates me is the Navy's, and all the services' for that matter, policy of not allowing Christian chaplains to pray in Jesus's name and the fact that Bush hasn't done anything to change that policy. Christianity is all about worshipping Jesus Christ, and if Christian chaplains can't mention the name of the God worshipped by the people they're trying to minister to they may as well get out of the military and find a ministry in civilian life.
What is even more irritating to me is that our president, who has made numerous mentions of his Christian beliefs while courting religious conservative voters, hasn't done anything to change the military's "no Jesus name" policy. Are our generals and admirals now so afraid of offending the relative handful of muslim servicemen that they can't allow the 99% who aren't muslim to practice their own religion? Or more to my point, is Bush also too afraid of offending muslims to change the policy?
As our lord says : Lawyers, liars, pharisees, hypocrites; you load burdens on other men's backs(go die in iraq so that my fingers can tap dance on my keyboard : freedom of speech)but will not lift a finger to help(give them their own freedom of speech while in or out of uniform). Why then are our guys dying in iraq for YOUR luxuries that they can't have? There is a fundamental principle involved here, far beyond a chaplain disobeying orders : the free speech guaranteed by our constitution. This is good vs evil, and the president either sees it, and deals with the navy brass mutineers, or he'll no longer be captain of the ship.
Golly! Speaking for God, are we?
Then consider: "Lawyers, liars, pharisees, hypocrites; you load burdens on other men's backs(go die in iraq so that my fingers can tap dance on my keyboard : freedom of speech)"
In case you hadn't cracked the code yet (which is obvious) - we ARE military folks. I've spent time in the middle east, and will go again this winter.
"...but will not lift a finger to help(give them their own freedom of speech while in or out of uniform)."
That is because, in the military, we DON'T HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH! What we say in private is one thing, but we have NO RIGHT to wear a uniform to a public political rally and say squat all. That is taught to everyone in the military, and every court in our history has agreed.
"Why then are our guys dying in iraq for YOUR luxuries that they can't have? There is a fundamental principle involved here, far beyond a chaplain disobeying orders : the free speech guaranteed by our constitution."
See above. The chaplain has the right to vote as he pleases, and what he says in private conversation is his own - but in public, while wearing the uniform - NO! I said a lot of bad things about clintoon, in private - but I had no right to say them in public, or while wearing the uniform. The military defends democracy - it doesn't practice it.
"This is good vs evil, and the president either sees it, and deals with the navy brass mutineers, or he'll no longer be captain of the ship."
The navy brass are NOT mutineers. The Chaplain, who lies repeatedly about his actions, is the mutineer. The President and everyone in the chain of command are in agreement. It applies to General Officers, it applies when talking pro or con - you do not wear a uniform to a political rally.
And if you are stupid enough to believe we would be better off as Christians to have the democrats in power - well, then you are probably too stupid to have found the voting booth anyways.
I hate to say it but you are coming off as a bit of a blithering idiot.
Focus!
If you want to make the case that it is hypocritcal for the Navy to hire someone to do the Lord's work but then say they can't do it in uniform or even mention the Lord's name outside of the chapel, then I'll agree with you.
An order that directs a Chaplain to disobey his faith, his religion, and his God is unlawful because the Navy is restricting and regulating his religion and that is a violation of the Constitution.
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