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Some Boat Owners With Gunky Motors Sing Ethanol Blues
Wall Street Journal ^ | September 2, 2006 | Robert Tomsho

Posted on 09/02/2006 12:24:22 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks

EAST HAMPTON, N.Y. -- Proponents of ethanol see it as a fuel additive that can relieve the nation's energy woes. Pleasure boaters like Walter Kaprielian say they need it like a hole in the hull.

Mr. Kaprielian's 1969 boat was made in Miami by Bertram Yacht, whose sturdy older vessels have a devoted following. But the 20-footer, a beamy craft with a small cabin, has had all sorts of things go wrong with it since marinas here began selling nothing but ethanol-blended gasoline two years ago.

The boat has spent the summer sitting in a repair yard while its owner thinks about expensive fixes such as a new $25,000 motor. "I get depressed just looking at it," says the 72-year-old, who sometimes seeks solace online, where a lot of boat owners are singing the ethanol blues. Boaters blame the blend for unpredictable stall-outs and a ruinous goo that brings some motors to a grinding halt.

"Take heed, folks, this stuff is nasty in outboards," one Virginia angler warned recently in a bass-fishing forum. On a site for Bertram owners, a New Yorker lamented leaving an article about ethanol problems out where his wife found it. Now "she wants to sell the boat," he wrote.

This past spring, Eric Koch, of Old Saybrook, Conn., did seek a buyer for the 34-foot boat he had spent nearly $40,000 to buy and restore. After ethanol problems set in, the kitchen designer ended up letting it go for $9,000. "It was time to cut some losses," he says.

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: boats; energy; engineproblems; ethanol; fueltanks; gasoline; generalchat
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To: daviddennis

I always wanted to own a Bertram - they are probably the best boats ever built, and since they don't make anything under 39' (and half a million dollars) nowadays, old models are prized. So this article actually is very sad news for the likes of me.



Consider it a buying opportunity ,, you can always cut into the fuel tanks and spray the innards with epoxy or some other coating that would be safe or perhaps line them in aluminum , stainless steel or one of those rubber bladders.. the lower initial purchase price would make buying one of the older boats ideal.


61 posted on 09/02/2006 7:32:21 PM PDT by Neidermeyer
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To: TheBattman
Apparently someone did not get the word regarding fuel tanks being all metallic?

Ethanol suspect in older fiberglass gas tanks
Boat/US Magazine, Jan, 2006

Older fiberglass gas tanks may fail or cause engine damage when filled with gasoline formulated with ethanol, according to damage reports collected by BoatU.S.

[ILLUSTRATION OMITTED]

BoatU.S. has learned of more than 30 cases of fiberglass gas tanks manufactured before the mid-1980s that produced an engine killing sludge or began leaking after being filled with 10% ethanol gasoline.

The investigation is ongoing, but it appears that 10% ethanol gasoline, which was introduced in the Long Island area to replace gas additive MTBE in late 2004, may be attacking the resins used in older fiberglass gas tanks

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQK/is_1_11/ai_n16019367
62 posted on 09/02/2006 7:41:34 PM PDT by VRWCTexan (History has a long memory - but still repeats itself)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
Enough already!


63 posted on 09/02/2006 7:59:47 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s...you weren't really there.)
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To: Neidermeyer

Well, depending on how much ethanol fuel had been run though the tank and engine before he bought it.


64 posted on 09/02/2006 8:04:21 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: VRWCTexan

Note- manufactured before the mid-80s. 20+ year old gas tanks that have already had long-term exposure to gasoline which damages fiberglass. I can see how ethanol might react with old, already.


65 posted on 09/02/2006 8:15:50 PM PDT by TheBattman (I've got TWO QUESTIONS for you....)
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To: Jeff Chandler

Except these fuels that people are talking about aren't exotic blends like E85 - these are just the fuels that *used* to come with MTBE that now have to use Ethanol instead, because MTBE is *nasty*.


66 posted on 09/02/2006 9:22:38 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr
Except these fuels that people are talking about aren't exotic blends like E85 - these are just the fuels that *used* to come with MTBE that now have to use Ethanol instead, because MTBE is *nasty*.

The same fuels that used to come without any expensive and efficiency-robbing oxygenates at all?

67 posted on 09/02/2006 9:35:46 PM PDT by supercat (Sony delenda est.)
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To: supercat

Yeah, but MTBE was also included as an anti-knock additive, much like lead used to be. That's the other function of ethanol - it's also an anti-knock additive. MTBE can, therefore, be considered a successor to lead.

Also, the gasoline refineries didn't have a choice - the EPA mandated that they use it. Thank the greenies for that one.


68 posted on 09/02/2006 9:43:40 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr
Yeah, but MTBE was also included as an anti-knock additive, much like lead used to be.

That's basically because it was cheaper to use than octane and nonane, right? If I understand correctly, octane has a higher energy capacity than heptane, but burns slower; typical 89-octane gas burns at the rate of a mix of 11% heptane and 89% octane, but the energy capacity is less than that of such a mixture.

If one were to shift to simply using more octane, I wonder how the cost would relate to the increased number of miles per gallon it would yield?

69 posted on 09/02/2006 9:56:05 PM PDT by supercat (Sony delenda est.)
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To: supercat

It doesn't work out, alas. You *would* be looking at $3/gal gasoline (race gas contains no ethanol, costs a *lot* more than what you buy at the pump, and even allowing for economies of scale to reduce the price, you're still looking at a significant increase in cost to produce.)

It should also be noted that straight octane has little to no detergent properties, and, in fact, doesn't burn nearly as cleanly.


70 posted on 09/02/2006 10:05:01 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: supercat

Oh, FYI, many countries never went to MTBE and went from lead straight to ethanol (and never switched) for their antiknock additives. I have owner's manuals that date back as far as 1978 that say that in many parts of the world, a driver might encounter fuel with ethanol in it, and that a concentration of up to 10% was acceptable and would not harm the vehicle.


71 posted on 09/02/2006 10:11:53 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: supercat

Oh, I forgot - because people are cheap, they almost never change their fuel hoses. Some of this "gunking" that people are reporting are on vehicles that are still using original hoses (from the 60's on imports and up to the 80's on domestics) that are *totally* incompatible with any significant alcohol (i.e., ethanol) content. The ethanol dissolves the interior of these old hoses, and what you get is black gunk in the carb and engine.

In addition, old Holley and Edelbrock carbs were known to have floats and parts that were not alcohol compatible - again, another source of gunk.

On the plus side, people with decent fuel injection systems or alcohol-tolerant carbs with EFI-class hoses will end up having a cleaner fuel system.


72 posted on 09/02/2006 10:15:33 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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Erm, somewhere in there should be "They don't change hoses, despite the fact that most makers recommend that they should be changed out every 5-10 years (or some number of miles) to prevent fires anyway."

This is what you will eventually get if you don't change your fuel hoses (ethanol or no ethanol):


73 posted on 09/02/2006 10:20:42 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

It seems to me that if you want to have an expensive hobby, you should be able to pay for it. Just like building a house below sea-level in New Orleans, or building a house on a mud-slide waiting to happen in California, or...<P<

The list goes on and on.


74 posted on 09/02/2006 10:23:34 PM PDT by Bernard ("America is not what's wrong with the world".: Donald Rumsfeld)
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To: ryan71

Ethanol tends to evaporate from a carburetor when it sits for an extended time.


75 posted on 09/02/2006 11:08:44 PM PDT by Pelham (McGuestWorkerProgram- Soon to serve over 1 billion immigrants)
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To: JOE6PAK

You can see a lot of those beautiful old mahogany boats on Lake Tahoe.


76 posted on 09/02/2006 11:12:54 PM PDT by Pelham (McGuestWorkerProgram- Soon to serve over 1 billion immigrants)
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To: TheBattman

Ethanol is a highly polar molecule and is indeed corrosive to aluminum. Think of a weak sodium carbonate solution. This is more of a problem at high temperatures as one would suspect. Ethanol fueled racing engines often use cast iron cylinder heads for this reason. (Methanol is worse.)

Possibly aluminum head automotive engines (the vast majority of car engines) will show ethanol damage with time. The alloys used, as I recall, are somewhat resistant to such damage. They need to be to tolerate antifreeze.


77 posted on 09/03/2006 2:30:02 AM PDT by Iris7 (Dare to be pigheaded! Stubborn! "Tolerance" is not a virtue!)
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To: timer

Dang, that sounds not impossible. My physics and math stinks. Pulling my leg? Higher end of the Boltzmann distribution? Lagrange multipliers and the calculus of variations? Woof.

Anyway, dang witty!


78 posted on 09/03/2006 2:47:13 AM PDT by Iris7 (Dare to be pigheaded! Stubborn! "Tolerance" is not a virtue!)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks; Iris7

I know, I know, it sounds a bit wild : fusion of Lithium 7 and hydrogen nuclei in your diesel combustion chamber, and using(basically)common lithium grease as an additive! If you look back in prior issues of Infinite Energy magazine you'll find the article on this process and its testing. They used it in natural gas boiler jets for some 10 years and got increased efficiency. What NAILS it is the alpha particle detector : No Li additive = no alpha particles detected above background levels. Add Li additive = KA-WHAM - there they are, a BIG jump in He4 nuclei(from Be8 decay)being given off by the jet burner.....No, it isn't a massive nuclear explosion leveling cities, it's just a tiny million deg F "burning" regime in the overall 1500 deg F CxHx burning regime within the combustion chamber. It gives diesel truck engines some 5% to 15% increased power and cleans out the gunk therein....Big oil/governments addicted to fuel taxes don't want you to know about this lithium fusion process of course, but the article says where you can buy lithium diluent oil by the gallon. Go buy a gallon of it and spoon-feed it into your gas tank, minimal cost to discover something new, even though it's been around for some 20 years now.


79 posted on 09/03/2006 12:59:04 PM PDT by timer
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To: TheBattman

Gasoline will not eat or damage fibergalss. For years a number of builders, including Bertram built their boats with fiberglass tanks. Ethanol is damaging fiberglass tanks (along with fule lines and various fuel system components) in older boats.


80 posted on 09/03/2006 1:11:34 PM PDT by mrmargaritaville
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