Posted on 08/27/2006 4:38:10 AM PDT by BigBlueJon
Edited on 08/27/2006 5:02:21 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
Possible plane crash in Lexington, KY. My brother works security for Lexington UK Hospital and was just called in. No news locally or on major news outlets yet. I didn't want to post anything for fear of being wrong, but he's still waiting for an official call while on stand-by.
Update from WTVQ 36 Lexington:
A plane has crashed near the Blue Grass Airport this morning. No word on details at this time. We are told it was a commercial aircraft. Versailles Road is blocked as emergency vehicles circle around the site. We have live coverage beginning at 7:20am. Stay with Action News 36 for more details.
One more thing. The video (taken yesterday after the crash) shows new paving on the shorter runway in the vicinity of the 22/26 intersection. I suppose the pilot could have mistaken this short section of paving as the new runway and began his take off accordingly. Just speculating...apologies.
I don't get this desire to seek ephemeral causal factors for what was obviously negligent behavior on behalf of the pilots. If I were to roll out of bed at 5AM tomorrow and jump in the car, get on the freeway going the wrong direction, and hit a school bus head-on, would you be calling for better signs, RFID chips on my car, the ramp, etc?
The mistake made by these guys is inexcusable in the extreme. Taking off on the wrong runway at an airport that only has one active, all-weather, commercial runway is not about the big, bad FAA, it's about a basic failure in performance. Would we accept such behavior from a physician or other professional entrusted with scores of lives.
What's tragic is the loss of innocent life. What's tragic is the pilots' failure to note the six to seven obvious indications that they were on the wrong runway. As a frequent flier, I am not in any way interested in explaining away the pilots' personal responsibility for this incident. They screwed up at a basic task.
If you don't think so, ask an experienced ATP if he/she can figure how two veteran pilots could have made such a fundamental error at a familiar, uncomplicated airport. The two I've spoken with since the crash are not just puzzled, they're pissed.
Thanks
I heard there were several markers they had to blow off to get lined up on the wrong runway. Is the pre-flight available tp the public?
"Any news from the NTSB's noon press briefing?"
I didn't catch it all, but from other reports, there doesn't seem to be anything new. An AP report said they are interviewing the ATC and are also going to drive the taxi-way this afternoon in a large truck (with a high vantage point) to see what the pilot might have seen. They are also planning to do the same thing tomorrow morning at the time the plane was scheduled to see it again in the dark.
I thought they might do that. It would be better yet to have the same make of plane do it with the NTSB observers on board.
I'm no pilot, but offhand...
- They'd have to miss the sign at the intersection of the runway and the taxiway. The sign would say "26" in white numbering on a red background. The sign, however, might not be lit, and they might not be able to see it (CRJ-100s have taxi lights, I assume, but I don't know how bright they are).
- They'd have to miss the big white "26" painted on the end of the runway. I don't know whether that "26" is behind or in front of where they would turn onto the runway; and also, those numbers are more oriented toward pilots in the air, not sitting 8-10 feet off the ground in a cockpit right in front of them. Or perhaps the numbers were faded, or the concrete cracking rendered them hard to read.
- Assuming that the note about the edge lighting on runway 26 being out of service was indeed accurate, they'd have to miss noticing that they were lining up on an unlit runway instead of a runway with functioning edge lighting. If the lights were working, or they didn't know the lighting on that runway was out, maybe they couldn't tell.
- They'd have to miss that their gyro and compass were indicating roughly 263 degrees instead of roughly 223 degrees. The CRJ has a compass mounted on the center windshield strut between the two pilots, and also indicates the heading on one of the displays in front of each pilot. But it might not be on their checklists to do that.
- The controller in the tower would have to miss that the aircraft was sitting on the wrong runway.
}:-)4
Lowell Wiley, a flight instructor who flies almost daily from Lexington, said he was confused by the redirected taxi route when he was with a student taking off from the main runway Friday.
Pilots encountered problems with the runway layout at Lexington's airport in the past, as well.
In a letter filed in 1993 with the Aviation Safety Reporting System, maintained by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, a pilot described his experience:
"Aircraft was cleared for immediate takeoff (traffic was inside the marker) on runway 22 at KLEX. We taxied onto the runway and told tower we needed a moment to check our departure routing with our weather radar (storms were in the area, raining at the airport). We realized our heading was not currect for our assigned runway and at that moment, tower called us to cancel the takeoff clearance because we were lined up on runway 26."
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060828/D8JPJ4B81.html
You guys probably know about this site already. I didn't...interesting.....
http://www.flightaware.com
Meaningless unless this is the only place such errors happen. One mistake every 13 years is not a pattern. That someone else appears to have been as unaware and careless as the Comair crew is not indicative of a trend. Also, the earlier incident has nothing to do with the repaving dust-up that others are using to attempt to explain their confusion.
If these guys got lost at LEX, we're lucky they weren't running around at ATL, ORD, or CVG where they might have killed more people by running into another aircraft.
It really is amazing, given the sheer volume of activity. The accuracy levels of aviation far exceed that of virtually every other field.
Go to minute 4:05 of the tape in #880 above. I can not see the numbers "26" though the numbers "22" are very clear on the adjacent runway.
I don't think you'll get much disagreement there. That said, there's a legitimate rationale behind designing your processes such that even negligent behavior might be avoided. If you were to do some failure mode effect analysis, and the outcome of taking off on the wrong runway is near certain death for the passengers, then the FAA might be justified in instituting additional process controls no matter how small the probability of occurrence.
Yeah - the number isn't painted on the runway. Interesting...(not that other checks shouldn't have caught it.)
I understand your point, but I think that this is something that has, to my knowledge, never happened to a US commercial carrier before. This would indicate that rather than spending vast sums on technology - ground radars asked for in one post, RFID schemes in another - it might be more effective to simply remind pilots that they should take off on runways designated for commercial traffic. Of course the crew of 5191 has already accomplished that for everyone. No need to do much else, I'd argue, except keep the focus where it belongs, crew performance.
Who knows what was going on during the taxi, but there is just no reasonable excuse for doing this. As an example, there was a small cluster of incidents in the 90's where pilots were landing at the wrong airport. There were at least 2 incidents with commercial carriers. The publicity was bad enough, and I doubt the pilots involved escaped with their careers intact. Since then I've not heard of anything like that happening again. Certainly this incident will have similar corrective effect.
To borrow a phrase, runways don't crash airplanes, pilots sometimes do. If this configuration is an accident waiting to happen, what do you call the parallel IFR approaches at SFO?
"I don't get this desire to seek ephemeral causal factors for what was obviously negligent behavior on behalf of the pilots. ... The mistake made by these guys is inexcusable in the extreme."
Nobody here is making excuses for the pilots. They failed miserably in one of their primary duties, verifying the correct runway. The speculation and questions raised are a normal part of trying to determine all of the causal factors, so they can be addressed, corrected if possible, and hopefully avoid similar occurrences. The NTSB will ask the same questions and a lot more, then issue a report. They will recommend changes to rules, regulations, runway design and markings, etc. - if they conclude that such recommendations would be useful in preventing future tragedies.
The answer to your question in your example is YES, if 'other factors' warranted it. To illustrate, let's restate your example and add a few 'other factors'.
Yes, you would be negligent and your mistake would be inexcusable. However, to prevent similar accidents in the future, the other factors must be addressed.
Sound farfetched? Not really. In Texas, we have some state highways that have very wide grassy medians - as wide as 50 yards or more in some spots. Many of these highways do not have over/under passes, but instead, have cross-overs. That is, a side street or FM road crosses the highway which might have a 65 or 70 mph speed limit. Many of these cross-overs do not have stop-lights or even street lights and very limited hard-to-see signs, so at night it is really treacherous to cross or turn onto the highway. Turning left from one of the side streets or FM roads can be especially hazardous at night if the median is wide and traffic is light. You can wind up driving into oncoming traffic very easily. Most accidents at these intersections usually involve strangers unfamiliar with the area, but sometimes even locals mess up. (Many of these highways are being upgraded with better designs, but it's a long, slow process.)
How about all those Texas frontage roads that are two way? Or one-way to the freeway entrance ramp and then change to two way?
Precisely my point.
If any other pilots have been confused as to the correct runway, then something is not right with the signs or design.
Yes, the 5191 pilots really messed up bigtime, but there are obviously other factors that must also be addressed.
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