Posted on 08/21/2006 5:51:49 PM PDT by Bob J
In earlier news it was reported that a Baptist Sunday school teacher of 54 years was let go from her position because "My belief is that the qualifications for both men and women teaching spiritual matters in a church setting end at the church door, period," the Pastor was quoted as saying.
Apparently in a letter sent to the teacher earlier in the month they qouted from First Timothy Two, 11-14 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."
This news was posted on FR here and here.
It's an interesting topic considering the current discussions regarding Sharia law and the treatment of women in Islam. Some FReepers were shocked and others appeared to support the policy based on scripture interpretation.
What is your opinion?
I have no need to trash Paul's teaching. God chose him. Must have had His reasons. HE's Paul's supervisor.
And, Paul paid a heavy price for whatever level of a role God gave him.
I'm responsible for taking all anyone teaches me to The Father, Son, Spirit and seeking God's application moment by moment in my life. No excuse for not doing that. IF I DO THAT, then it's between God and I as to the particulars. No blame to lay on anyone else, imho.
Not just a word. The whole passage, because it's simply Paul's opinion which illustrates the hardness in some folks hearts and the inability for them to understand that the rational capacities of both men and women are the same.
You are wrong to bring up Matt and Luke 4. The proper passage that applies here, given by God Himself is Matt 19:8
Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." It is the same with Paul and his take on women.
"you believe Gen. 3 is a merely parable"
It is parable. There was no garden and the events therein never took place as given. Matt 13:34-35
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."[Psalm 78:2]
"you really have no authority for any argument."
My authority is what is written and the rational examination I've given it.
"Adam, after seeing the evidence of the fall of his bride, fully aware of the manner of deception that brought it about, chose, WITHOUT being deceived, to DIE FOR HIS BRIDE."
No. He took it, because he also wanted the knowledge and understanding of God w/o doing it on his own. IOWs, he was comfortable with simply taking it as Eve was. The idea that he was going to die for Eve is ridiculous.
"you don't believe the whole Bible"
It should be very clear that I just don't believe you.
Then explain to me why Priscilla, a woman, was teaching Apollo, a man, about Jesus Christ? And why did Paul consider her a worthwhile ally if it was wrong for her to teach scripture to a man?
Most of those points I don't get too excited about.
Not thrilled about "Easter" eggs. I think that could be handled better and differently, certainly. I like "Resurrection Day" much better.
Christmas trees . . . I celebrate HIS birth with a proper attitude of heart. Don't fallderall with the tree mess any more. Don't fault those who do with a good heart attitude toward God.
Christians in China may 'hide' true heart worship under all kinds of holiday surface stuff.
Wisdom is still wisdom. There's a time and place to stand tall and rub our overt worship vigorously in satan's face.
There's a time even Biblically to lay low, below the radar, in the catecombs of modern life and strengthen the roots . . .
Holy Spirit decides. Mine is to obey regardless.
The Bible makes it clear women are not to to teach men about scripture
= = = =
I can understand your construction on that reality. I can understand those who have a different construction on that Biblical statement.
God's the boss. Sort it out with Him.
That's my read and conviction on it.
Followers of Jesus dye Ishtar eggs and hide them in the woods.
Followers of Yeshua observe Chanukah.
Followers of Jesus prop up ancient Babylonian holiday trees in their living rooms (Jeremiah 10).
You figure it out.
Don't look at me, I can't figure it out, either.
It doesn't matter so long as they know their stuff.
The word deception has meaning. Adam was right there with Eve, so he heard hte serpent's spew also. There is no way to rationally blame Eve for the deception. Adam simply attempted to transfer the blame. It was the writer of Gen 3 that did that, not God. It's the same writer that claimed the pains of childbirth are a result of this story. The story is not literal. It is a parable and the fundamental point illustrated is, that men are here on this Earth to develope their own knowledge, understanding and wisdom.
LOL.
As I understand it, some note that Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin. And, that one could not be a member of the Sanhedrin without being married.
Seems unclear as to whether his wife died, left him for his becoming a Christian or whatever.
My mother had a particularly distinctive STOMP down the asile, across the room, down the hall whenever she felt someting particularly strongly.
I've seen a LOT of pastors cower from that coming, looming, ZELMA STOMP. She didn't teach men, that I recall. But she could sure ream them a new one if they didn't teach kosher according to ZELMA's construction on reality.
Women should teach women and men should teach men. That's the ideal. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Christian men and so-called Christian men who have abdicated their duty in this regard.
= = = =
Lots of agreement with you on my part.
Scripture tells us that Priscilla and Aquila taught Apollo the gospel of Jesus? The fact that Priscilla is mentioned first tells us she probably was the main teacher.
I agree.
It is interesting that of the 4 & 20 Elders mentioned in Revelation . . . not one is a woman.
God is clearly Masculine in a list of ways and names. Yet Holy Spirit, while masculine is also Comforting.
Yet, we have Ruth, Queen Esther, Pricilla and Acquilla etc.
I don't think God intended us to get our undies in a wad over any of this.
Paul refers to a thorn in his side... and many speculate that his "thorn" was a wife. We report. You decide.
2 Cor12: 1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
LOL.
Hadn't heard that perspective before.
I can think of a lot of hubbys who'd agree.
Probably equalled only by the wives who feel similarly.
I don't think it was.
"Paul refers to a thorn in his side... and many speculate that his "thorn" was a wife. We report. You decide."
I doubt it very much. -MM
I didn't say I thought it so, I was just passing speculations that have been made, by others. I just appreciate the wording in the NIV, and see how it can often apply! :>)
In the rest of the chapter, he is making it clear that there are scoffers over his qualifications. He sets them clearly, and continues to teach!
11I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing. 12The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance. 13How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!
14Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less? 16Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! 17Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent you? 18I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not act in the same spirit and follow the same course?
19Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? We have been speaking in the sight of God as those in Christ; and everything we do, dear friends, is for your strengthening. 20For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. 21I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.
...and continues in the final chapter...
1This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."[a] 2I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others, 3since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you. 4For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God's power we will live with him to serve you.
5Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? 6And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test. 7Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong. Not that people will see that we have stood the test but that you will do what is right even though we may seem to have failed. 8For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. 9We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection. 10This is why I write these things when I am absent, that when I come I may not have to be harsh in my use of authority—the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down.
11Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
12Greet one another with a holy kiss. 13All the saints send their greetings.
14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
And clearly feminine, for the literal translation of the Hebrew El Shaddai (God Almighty in my Bible) is "God, the many-breasted One."
Please don't interpret that as agreement that women should have "church"-authority over men.
Although I wouldn't have chosen your colloquialism, I agree there's no need to get all upset.
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