Nobel prize winner Grass admits serving in Nazi SS

Well,

That is a problem in German society as a whole. They see the political spectrum as a flat two dimensional left and right. In truth, far left is the same as far right.

The difference between an Eric Honicker, Stalin, Adolf, or Mao is 'academic'. The results are the same. But....... you must understand that the German does not see it this way. Call a German a 'nationalist' and he will immediately get defensive. Call many a socialist and they'll take it as a compliment. Many of their political parties even blast the message that they are socialists! The German sees the socialist opposing the Nazi and even as a victim of Nazi’s. Truth is, many of the agenda's of the national "SOCIALISTS" were the same as those of the communists even at that time. The debate of who is worse or how they are different is shear semantics. The battle between the communists and national socialists in Germany was a battle between two equally bad, corrupt, and ruthless ways of thinking. The Nazi’s simply saw the communists as a threat so they killed them too. But in the end, they were alike.

After the war, the evil was pinned on nationalism and even patriotism. Socialism was exempted and even viewed as a victim itself. So when talking to Germans realize, that they see no danger in socialism, even though the economic and political organization is near identical. The DDR had the Stasi and the Nazi’s the Gestapo. The DDR poisoned and murdered political dissidents and the Nazi’s murdered political dissidents. Both placed the economic machine under state control, both seek centralization of all power in political and economic terms. Ironically, the former DDR is a perfect little example of this dichotomy between reality and what is. The socialist of the DDR saw themselves as victims of the Nazi’s, they saw themselves as the polar opposite. In truth they were the exact same thing.

Even today, though in the DDR Germans were brutalized along the boarder, had dissidents locked up, people oppressed, movement restricted, communications monitored…….. the German does NOT connect the dots and see socialism as bad.

German society is a bit different that ours, despite our similarities overwhelmingly in the bigger picture. The Germans do not have the rich democratic heritage the US has. You do not have the separation of powers in government and with the states nor even the empowerment of the people as in the US. They mock this in fact and laugh at US gun laws, the Branch Divinians or why New Orleans was a mess. But what you have in the US while it appears as chaotic, it was by “design” intended that way. There is a reason why the National Guard does not fall under federal control, why the people have a “constitutional right” to bear arms, why the CIA and FBI are separated, have different domains of responsibility and by law neither could nor should encroach in the others lane………. Fundamentally in the US you have a different perception of what keeps a republic alive. The Germans do not fear big government. They do not decentralize the way we do. In fact they have a tendency to want to centralize everything. The “radical middle”, those gun toting fools who would die rather than give up their rights do not exist, or at least there are less of them. They see the evil of the Nazi as having been nationalistic, not a centralist thinker who is socialist.

They see the evil of the Nazi as having been nationalistic, not a centralist thinker who is socialist.

That's generally true of the vast majority of Europeans I've talked to, at least those from the western side of the old iron curtain.

Thanks for your insights. It's scary to me that most Europeans don't understand where Hitler and the Nazis came from. They have big blind spots, such as failing to recognize resurgent anti-Semitism in the guise of anti-Israel, pro-islamofascist views.

The young make some of the most vicious mass murderers around. The Warsaw Uprising was at the end of the war. God knows how many died at the hands of young SS soldiers...the SS were monsters.

However, the SS were not involved in fighting soldiers in the East. They were involved in the murder of civilians-the so called 'special actions'.

How do you explain the support for socialist totalitarians by people who grew up and live in an entirely free society? I don´t think that Grass´ membership in the Waffen-SS builds a connection to his leftist worldviews. He most probably exaggerated in learning lessons from WW2.

Revisionist BS. Time for small history lesson if you may. If someone says that EVERY Waffen SS soldier has nothing to be ashamed he/she doesn't know what we're talking about and such statement has little to do with reality. Waffen SS units were created by Himmler's order in 1.I.1940. According to his statement their role their was to "enslave and if necessary exterminate 180 million members of nations which names one couldn't even pronounce". Also for example look here: Oradour-sur-glane massacre by 2.Waffen-SS Division "Das Reich"or here:War Crimes and Legal Immunities: The Complicities of Waffen-SS General Karl Wolff in Nazi medical experiments
SS-Totenkopf Standarten (unit running concentration camps) in later years of WW2 joined Waffen-SS on a regular basis (as well as LSSAH members).

In reality for example 821 Waffen SS soldiers liquidated Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in '43.

Also following Waffen SS units liquidated the Warsaw Uprising '44:

14. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS (galizische Nr 1)
18. Freiwilligen SS-Panzergrenadier Division "Horst Wessel"
29. Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS (russische Nr 1 - ROA) plus
5. SS-Panzer Division "Wiking" (tanks:
- PzKpfw VI "Tiger" - 4
- PzKpfw V "Panther" - 1
- PzKpfw IV - 4
- StuG III - 1)

Murders and rapists serving under Oscar Dirlewanger that pillaged Warsaw all wore green Waffen-SS uniforms.

The Rape of Warsaw

So far for Waffen SS 'mythology'.

"I thought The Tin Drum was extremely interesting, actually, and this makes it even more so."

I agree w/ you, I think "Tin Drum" is one of the most important books of the 20th century because of the picture it provides of the German mind at that time.

You may be interested to know that "Tin Drum" is part of a Danzig trilogy of sorts that includes "Dog Years" and "Cat & Mouse".

Good research! German civilians good, Wermacht good, Waffen SS good, who the f... was bad?? One damn Austrian painter probably…

I have no doubt that the Waffen-SS deserved the attribute "criminal organisation". Lots of their units, I say the most, were involved in most horrible crimes against humanity. And I think that a person who has "served" (whom? Germany? Nope, in fact, the Nazis have damaged Germany! They served the devil...) in it has good reasons to be ashamed. But - as always - we consider the individual case. Grass´ unit was not involved in atrocities, so the historians tell us. Grass himself tells us he never shot a bullet in combat. So how can he be a war criminal? He simply isn´t.

And Lukasz, while there were many innocent German civilians and many innocent German soldiers and few innocent Waffen-SS´lers (thinking of the dumb teenagers like Grass), there were also many guilty Germans. Unfortunately, too few have been held responsible for their crimes. It´s the sad truth that too many got away and lived comfortably until their death among family and friends. There is no excuse for murder, and murder can always be prosecuted. But those who didn´t kill and regret bad behaviour (such as cheering for the Nazis or mocking Jews) should be forgiven when they´ve proven that they have learned their lessons. People may change, and Mr. Grass did so (even though he became a socialist).

And you do exactly what I expected. Let's play the game of listing atrocities, that's BS.

Of course the SS helped put down uprisings in Warsaw. What do you expect? Of course they fought against US, Russian, British etc troops. Is them fighting equate to them being evil?

Many of the guards at camps were women. Are all German women evil also? Some of the guards came over from the Wehrmacht? Is all the Wehrmacht evil?

Since you're all about facts:

http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~sfranco/guards.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/female-guards-in-nazi-concentration-camps

http://experts.about.com/e/f/fe/Female_guards_in_Nazi_concentration_camps.htm

The SS at wars end was nearly 400,000 men in size (1944), throughout the ENTIRE war about 55,000 people served as guards at these camps at various times. 3,600 of these guards were women alone. These women wore “SS” uniforms. Some of these gaurds outside of Germany were not even German. What if I told you that some of the guards at the camps were Jews themselves who were given special perks for doing this? Believe it?

Most of the troops that served in units like the Waffen-SS never worked at some camp. I’m sorry to disappoint you. Let’s think about this real hard! The Reich is imploding since the end of 1942. What do you do? Send lots of able bodied healthy fit volunteers to concentration camps to work as guards?

Read something about this unit, where it fought and where those people died-

http://www.waffen-ss.no/SS-Panzer-Division-Hohenstaufen.htm

They fought in battles like this: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/7-8/7-8_cont.htm

The Einsatzguppen were formed for the exclusive purpose of committing “war crimes”. Some of the senior leaders in the SS can be accused of wrong doing because they coordinated and helped plan a lot of the wrongs committed even if they themselves did not pull the trigger. You senior camp leadership was SS normally. I’ve said all this already.

However, the Waffen-SS were largely elite troops who on the battle field fought fierce and were hated for that reason. Mostly volunteer, the best equipped, and trained, their leadership was near all combat hardened and was promoted based on merit……. these troops were notorious for not giving up very easily, they were the ones that had the nice toys (Tiger I and later II) they had the camouflage uniforms while the rest of the German Wehrmacht largely ran around in wool grey……… A young German soldier in a Waffen SS unit who went to the East front in the above named division, later went to the West front didn’t take quick breaks so he could serve as a guard in a concentration camp. But maybe that’s just my ‘revisionist’ view on history.

Lech Walesa ain't buyin' it. He must not read newspapers, either. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1684055/posts

Do you read my posts? I suspect you don´t. I asked you a question, whether you read various newspapers on a daily basis. So you take your informations, news, from independant sources, right? You are an informed person. Well, the Germans in Nazi Germany got the propaganda from Goebbels. Listening to BBC (for the minority for whom BBC was available) was an offense, for which many went to prison. Oppressive regimes use to manipulate their citizens, look at Cuba, look at Iran or N Korea. Do you blame a 17 year old Iranian for supporting his president? I don´t. I blame the president and his regime. But not the 17 year old. But I guess, that´s too much of thinking, is it?

Do you read my posts? I suspect you don´t.

What I posted, which you did not read or respond to, was we may simply assume Grass was a foolish, brainwashed youth. But that doesn't explain his support for socialist totalitarian regimes the rest of his adult life, and intense dislike of the only Jewish state on the planet.

Man - you wanna play games? :) Ok let's take it slow and I will try to treat you generously this last time. :) Sit back and enjoy the bad trip.

1. Many of the guards at camps were women. Are all German women evil also?

First of all cut all women guards crap. This post was about Waffen SS not some women guards. They have nothing to do with the subject. But since you've asked - some were evil some weren't. Surely the WW2 opened carreer opportunities in Konzentration Lagers for thousands of low life German scum (primitives, former prostitutes, thieves). Some of them were later sentenced and hanged (like the ones from Auschwitz: Johanna Bormann, Irma Grese, Margot Drechsel, Maria Mandel or Elisabeth Volkenrath).

2.Some of the guards came over from the Wehrmacht? Is all the Wehrmacht evil?

If you think that Wehrmacht soldiers didn't commit war crimes you are very naive. Not to look very far - some examples from September campaign '39. Here's a short list:

- 2nd and 3rd of September 1939 in Silesia, between Rybnik and Wadzim, Polish soldiers from 12th Infantry were taken as POWs. They were "thrown on the ground and tanks drove over them".

- 3rd of September in Bugaj village, near Dmenin, Germans shot down Polish plane taking its 2 persons crew. One of the POWs after being tortured [his tongue, ears and nose were cut out] was killed. Crime comitted by 4th Panzer Division of XVIth Corps 10th Army of gen. von Reichenau.

- Execution of civilian staff of Post Office in Gdansk.

- Execution of 300 Polish POWs. Ciepielow - 8th of September.

- 4th of September, Opatowiec. 45 POWs killed.

- 6th of September in the fields near Moryca village Germans shot 19 officers POWs from 76 Infantry Battalion, privates were burnt alive in one of the houses in Longinowka

6th of September in Zreczyce, near Myslenice, in Jozefa Malek's yard, German soldiers executed 60 civilians, including 3 Polish POWs

- 8th of September Mszczonow, 11 Polish POWs publicly shot by German soldiers

- 10th of September Piaseczno near Warsaw Wehrmacht soldiers shot 21 POWs in the church yard

- night of 13/14th September 200 POWs murdered on the squaremarket in Zamborow. 18 Infantry Division.

- 13 September - German soldiers from 1st Light Division murdered 54 men - civilians from Cecylowka, as a revenge for previous Polish fierce defense in this area

- 20th of September in Majdan Wielki Wehrmacht soldiers massacred 42 POWs of 20th Infantry Division

- 22 IX 1939: execution of Aleksander Kurowski and Markus Slodki

- 18th of September in Sladow, near Sochaczew, 300 people shot by entering Germans (including 150 POWs). Crime comitted by soldiers of 4th Panzer Division of XVIth Corpse 10th Army.

- 20th of September near Przemysl 100 POWs from Mountain Infantry Division were burnt in a barn. One person managed to escape.

- 20th of September in Majdan Wielki Wehrmacht soldiers massacred 42 POWs of 20th Infantry Division

The list of Wehrmacht crimes in Poland goes on and on during the whole occupation period (to mention Wawer massacre from December '39 where over 100 civilians were killed.

Read about Waffen SS atrocities in Warsaw during the Uprising and maybe you're vision of what's evil will change. Yes, raping and killing nuns is evil. Execution of women and children is evil. Pillaging civilian houses and robbing the corpses is evil. Wola Massacre Sick.

3.What if I told you that some of the guards at the camps were Jews themselves who were given special perks for doing this? Believe it?

I assume that being a Pole I should know more about reality of camps better than you. I've visited Auschwitz a couple of times, have been to Majdanek, Treblinka and Gross Rosen. Read 'Medallions' by Nalkowska and 'This Way To Gas Ladies and Gentlemen' by Tadeusz Borowski. People who actually been there. Also my wife's great grandfather died in Auschwitz so there were all kinds of family stories about this issue. I think that should give your "suprising statements" a different perspective.

4.However, the Waffen-SS were largely elite troops who on the battle field fought fierce and were hated for that reason. Mostly volunteer, the best equipped, and trained, their leadership was near all combat hardened and was promoted based on merit……. these troops were notorious for not giving up very easily, they were the ones that had the nice toys (Tiger I and later II) they had the camouflage uniforms while the rest of the German Wehrmacht largely ran around in wool grey……… A young German soldier in a Waffen SS unit who went to the East front in the above named division, later went to the West front didn’t take quick breaks so he could serve as a guard in a concentration camp. But maybe that’s just my ‘revisionist’ view on history.

If you read into my post a lil harder you will miraculously find out that I stated something completely opposite. Many ex-camp guards volunteered to Waffen SS. They actually constituted the core of the 3rd Waffen SS Division Totenkopf (SS Totenkopfverbände or SSTV).

"In 1938, the Totenkopfverbande expanded also into a military division, with the founding of the Totenkopf division which would, by 1941, become a full division of the Waffen-SS."(...) "By 1944, with the Concentration Camps fully integrated with the Waffen-SS and under the control of the WVHA, a standard practice developed to rotate SS members in and out of the camps, based on manpower needs and also to give assignments to wounded Waffen-SS officers and soldiers who could no longer serve in front line combat duties. This rotation of personnel is the main argument that nearly the entire SS knew of the Concentration Camps, and what actions were committed within, making the entire organization liable for war crimes and crimes against humanity."

Putting it simply - with all respect due your revisionist theory about Waffen SS supposed innocence simply doesn't hold the water. Some of these 'heroes' were also directly involved in crimes over American POWs:

The SS military wing, the Waffen-SS, evolved into a second German army in addition to the regular German army, the Wehrmacht. The Waffen-SS had a reputation for fanatical fighting and extreme brutality. Its units helped wipe out resistance by Polish Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and slaughtered U.S. prisoners of war near the Belgian town of Malmedy during the Battle of the Bulge in 1944 (1st Waffen-SS Panzer Division 'Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler').

Schutzstaffel record in Wikipedia

However, the SS were not involved in fighting soldiers in the East.

Yes, they were. The 2nd SS Panzerkorps stopped the Russian advance after Stalingrad at Kharkov. They were also at Kursk. The Waffen SS units were a very mixed bag. Some crack troops with impeccable records, some no more than bands of criminals and murderers. There's an effort now to find out just what unit Grass was in.

1. The Waffen-SS was not there to exclusively run death camps. They were the fighting wing of the SS.

“First of all cut all women guards crap. This post was about Waffen SS not some women guards. They have nothing to do with the subject. But since you've asked - some were evil some weren't. Surely the WW2 opened carreer opportunities in Konzentration Lagers for thousands of low life German scum (primitives, former prostitutes, thieves).” You state.

When I can demonstrate that many others filled the roles as guards at these camps it has everything to do with it. The Waffen-SS had near 400,000 in its ranks in 1944 alone. Of the total 55,000 guards used at camps in WWII over their entire time of operation, 10% were alone woman, some were Jews themselves (When people are desperate they will do all kinds of things to survive); some were foreigners etc……

The Waffen-SS was the fighting wing of the SS. There were no less than 38, SS divisions in WWII many of whom were decimated and reconstituted. They were considered to be the toughest and most capable troops the Germans had, period. Their record speaks for itself both in the East and West.

2. One needs to ask if the crimes were systemic and then determine if that individual was personally culpable.

“If you think that Wehrmacht soldiers didn't commit war crimes you are very naïve.” You state

You didn’t understand my comparison. You use the acts of some to lay blanket judgment on all. That is no reasonable argument and I demonstrated that. Using your thinking we could claim all military’s everywhere in every war are nothing but criminals, and indeed there are some who are on the fringes of the political left that try just that.

Hell, why even have a tribunal and judges! Just hang all Germans! In case you don’t get it this time, that’s called sarcasm. Let’s look at Rommel. He was at the top and had to know about the Holocaust, yet would he have hung? No. Was his Africa Corps a bunch of bad guys? No. On the other hand, you had Himmler, and he without doubt deserved to be hung although he avoided that fate. Just like all who were in the Hitler Jugend were also not bad. Think of who the Pope is today!

Remember that these kids grew up in a world where you had mass propaganda and film was used for the first time in this effort. The media was controlled, schools were infected and taught this crap, you had the Hitler Youth and and and. Is it surprising if some physically fit, healthy, aggressive young man wants to join the Waffen-SS? No.

I can agree that most of German society can be condemned for:

• Not having backed their Constitution and republic, allowing a despot regime to form.
• Going along with this regime and knowing that it was evil.

Most Germans state, “We didn’t know”. That simply is not the truth. Most did know what was happening but it was not talked about and after the war everyone denied any knowledge of it. There are a few who went to great lengths to hide Jews and did act out on their conscience. Some of them were put to the wall. Even here it’s hard to lay a blanket judgment on all people. Nonetheless, we are talking about general trends and in a larger picture. I would even agree that knowing about a moral wrong and tolerating it makes you partially guilty of it as well.

Most of the soldiers in the Waffen-SS had to have known and most of them were volunteers. The organization was “systemic” and “deliberate” even “planed” the war crimes that were committed. Even those who never were in the camps had to have known and Hitler himself on numerous occasions spelled out what he thought of Jews. A blanket label of this organization is appropriate.

***You make some convincing arguments specific the Waffen-SS in moral terms. When did I justify atrocities though? At what point did I say that the NAZI foreign policy was a good one?

3. You have to put it into context of that society.

That said – A 17 year old coerced into volunteering into such an organization is hardly a statement of what this man is about. This thread is about Grass, and even if we want to look at the larger picture, one has to see the reality that in a society that is totalitarian with an enormous propaganda machine, where you can only be successful if you buy into the system by joining the party etc….. In a world of schools that teach a political ideology and the Hitler Youth brainwashes kids……. Context matters.

Was Karajan a bad guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_von_Karajan In a totalitarian regime you will only succeed if you’re on the team. In the Soviet Union, under Saddam or Hitler, it really is all the same. The scientist practicing his Jewish science, as Hitler referred to it had no place in this world, so Einstein left.

The basis for my views-

The problem with listing atrocities – anyone can do it. The French were executing German POW’s by the hundreds. Yet no one cares.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=27259&archive=true

CPT Maynulet was a peer of mine and we both were in Iraq at the same time. Were his actions indicative of the organization for which he served? No. Was Abu Gharib? No. You have millions of interactions daily between Iraqi’s and US troops. These events become more than they really are. They become icons and rallying points around which people like Cindy Sheehan gather. As mentioned earlier, you do however in the greater scheme of things make a convincing argument that the problems with the Waffen-SS were “systemic”. The leadership ordered much of the evil done, most knew about it even if they did not directly participate themselves and this behavior was wide spread. Morally they were hollow, but they were an elite combat force that did fight fierce. I generally do not use the Anne Frank story approach to dealing with situations like this.

4. You have to separate amoral or unmoral from other achievement. Someone can be a real jerk, a womanizer, drug using, God hating, individual and still be a great athlete.

No matter how much you hate someone, no matter how much you loath a system or despise their actions, it does not discredit all else. Hitler was a great leader, he was a sicko and most in this forum would shoot him on sight. But he could talk well to the people, he did know how to use propaganda, he could manipulate, decisive, and read the publics mood well. No matter how much some hate Saddam, he knew how to stay in power and play the Shia against the Kurds. After 1991 Saddam began to wear Arab dress more often and began to play the “I’m an Arab Muslim brother” game. Can you say “Oil for Food”? What a great plan! He created a system that gave financial incentives and split the coalition of 1991. Iraq was on the WMD non-proliferation committee within the UN! No matter how corrupt, decedent and evil his clan was (Uday and Qusay included), he knew how to stay in power and play his game. Hezbollah today has politically maneuvered well! Does this mean that I see them as hero’s?

You should read more for content and less what you want to read. Their performance in battle was exemplary. You mention war crimes against US troops; maybe you should read my own post again. I already chewed through that. It is somewhat of an insult when you do not read other peoples writing and just rant on. While I have not visited Ausschwitz, I did visit Dachau. While I had none of my family in a KZ, my grandfather and his brothers did fight in WWII against this regime.

The Waffen-SS, Fallschirmjaeger and Afrika Korps were among the best troops Germany had in WWII. All of these units hand picked their troops to some extent. Each one of them performed marvelously in military terms – like it or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino (A good example Fallschirmjaeger) Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_SS_Panzer_Division_Hitlerjugend (Waffen-SS)

I suggest you read about their selection and training: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS

However, this still leaves open the question of someone like Grass. A 17 year old boy coerced into service and living in a world of one sided propaganda. Can you really label him so easily?

Well, I agree with most of your post. It's a good one. As you suggest Waffen SS was a unit that can be generally considered as having superior fighting skills, but at the same time based on the facts that I mentioned some other maybe less, heroic assessments can be built (I think you would agree with that). As you rightly stated due to constant mixing, reconstutions and circulation of soldiers between SSTV and Waffen SS most of its soldiers definitely "knew" about practices against the civilians in the East, extermination of Jews and other crimes.

You mentioned Abu Ghraib... I once said that the difference between and army and a horde is in the way the treat crime cases within their ranks. To me undisciplined, abusive soldiers are better dead. In Waffen SS actually the bigger problem was not with discipline but with evil ideology that they served. Ideology that made crime and murder a soldier's privilage and every-day fighting tool.

One thing worries me... More than 'over the surface' knowledge of history is not something you see very often among young people. And as you know there are plenty of neoNazis across the globe these days. You admire Waffen SS for their skills and battle attitude - maybe not you, maybe some other people would go much farther and fall in for Nazi symbolics and think: "Geez, these guys were so coooooool... ". Nope, they weren't cool at all. Pretty often they were murders and rapists. And as ideaological fanatics cannot be a paragon of virtues for anyone sane. Of course, unless you are Hezbollah/Islamic Jihad supporter. ;)

As for poor old Gunther. While I don't condemn Grass for being a brainwashed teenager I certainly do condemn him for concealing this fact for almost 6 decades (as opposed to Benedictus XVIth for example). I think you also won't argue with that. If you hide something like that you automatically allow others to assume that you have a good reason for that, is it not so?

BTW

Thanks for the link to Monte Cassino battle. Seems Fallschirmjaeger were good, but not good enough. My father's father fought there too in 2nd Carpathian Rifle Brigade.

DDR-NVA

Wehrmacht

The Gestapo

The Stasi

:)

Thx.

I have had many debates with Germans where they try to deny that the socialist and NAZI are in reality the same-

Both types of systems centralize power and put the control of the means of production, political power, media, essential infrastructure........ under their control.

In the end, the difference between Hitler and Stalin is academic. The results are the same. Even in architecture, sculptures, paintings........of these regimes tend to be similar. Have you noticed that near all such regimes tend to focus and pivot around a single person? Example: Mao, Kim Jong Il, Stalin, Hitler, Saddam, Pinochet, Tito, Castro, Honiker, Ceausescu, Mussolini.........