Posted on 07/19/2006 7:10:06 AM PDT by white trash redneck
The F-35 (recently named the Lightning II) is due to enter service soon. While the F-22 is widely seen as the ultimate air-to-air machine, the F-35 is described as a multi-role aircraft. How does the F-35 compare in the air-to-air mission against likely competitors like the French Rafale, the Swedish Gripen, and the multi-national Eurofighter?
The Rafale, Gripen, and Eurofighter are all in service or expected to enter service in 2006. All of them boast some of the best electronics suites ever to appear in combat aircraft. All have top speeds approaching 2,000 kilometers an hour. All three aircraft carry excellent beyond-visual-range missiles (like the Mica, AMRAAM, and Meteor). All are highly maneuverable. But will they be better than the F-35 in a fight?
The answer, surprisingly, is probably not. The F-35 has one big advantage over these three fighters from Europe. Its radar signature is very small as is the case with the F-117 and F-22. Given that its speed is comparable to the European jets, and its AESA radar is at least as good as the European systems, this "invisibility" is a decisive advantage. The best weapons in the world are useless if they cannot see their targets.
The F-35 will be able to see the Rafale, Gripen, and Eurofighter long before it can be seen itself. The first rule of air combat may be "speed is life", but the second rule is "lose the sight, lose the fight". In the 21st century, sight includes radar. It is very likely that the only warning the F-35 may give of its presence will be when its radar has locked on to one of the European fighters. By that point, the F-35 is already close to launching its AMRAAMs.
This is probably the major reason for the United States Air Force's future dominance of the air. Even its second-best fighter will probably be able to best the front-line designs of other western nations in a "paper" fight based on specifications and capabilities. When the level of training American pilots get is added to the mix, the F-35's advantage becomes staggering. One other factor to consider is that the United States Air Force plans to have 1,763 F-35s on inventory (the Marine Corps and Navy variants would add another 780 F-35s to the mix). If the Rafale is built to a planned force level of 292, and the Saudi order for the Eurofighter goes through, the combined Gripen, Rafale, and Eurofighter production runs will total 1,262, meaning there will be two F-35s for every one of the advanced European fighters. Harold C. Hutchison (haroldc.hutchison@gmail.com)
interesting.
I am not sure what you mean by universalizing.
You perhaps do have access to information that I (and the general public) do not, and I have several choices:
1.) Concede that I am out of touch with the current realistic trends and projections in air defense. In that case I would have to defer to you on everything I am unaware of.
2.) Accept your assertions with that in mind and concede all points to you.
3.) Disagree with you on the current level of advancement towards a cheap, highly mobile DEW (Directed Energy Weapons) system.
I would choose option 3, because I do monitor aspects of DEW development (Such as the relationship with the Israelis, so I am not completely unaware. of this.) Given the level of funding (this is a non-classified document):
A. MISSION DESCRIPTION AND BUDGET ITEM JUSTIFICATION: This project funds the applied research, study, assessment, and demonstration of technologies that could provide a non-lethal capability or target effect. Investment areas include applied research related to: non-lethal directed energy weapons (lasers, millimeter wave and high power microwave) for counter-personnel and counter-material missions; non-lethal acoustic and optical technologies; advanced non-lethal materials (including materials for vehicle/vessel stopping and advanced anti-traction materials); associated human effects and effectiveness for new non-lethal stimuli; injury potential and effectiveness of directed energy, electric stun, ocular, and acoustic based non-lethal technologies; and developing models of crowd behavior and dynamics.
B. ACCOMPLISHMENTS/PLANNED PROGRAM:
FY 2005 Accomplishments: - Initiated examination of target effects/characterization and assessed the resulting crowd behavior and effectiveness of non-lethal acoustic and optical (light stun/distract) technologies. - Initiated investigation of the characteristics, optimization, and control of Laser Induced Plasma (LIP) phenomena for its non-lethal applications to both counter-personnel and counter-material missions. LIP is a phenomenon of some high energy, short pulse lasers that has several potential applications to produce or transmit non-lethal stimuli. - Initiated evaluation of advanced non-lethal material technologies, such as new anti-traction materials, for advanced non-lethal weapons.
FY 2006 Plans: - Continue all efforts of FY 2005. - Continue applied research currently being performed under the Joint Non-Lethal Weapon Directorates (JNLWDs) Non-Lethal Technology Innovation Center (NTIC). The continued mission of the NTIC is to foster the free flow of appropriate science and technology information between the JNLWD and academia, industry, military, and other government entities. - Initiate investigation of several advanced non-lethal material technologies for advanced non-lethal weapons by including engine suffocates, morphing materials for new non-lethal rounds or flight bodies, and new non- lethal nano-materials. - Initiate investigation of human effects associated with high-energy counter-material and counter-personnel lasers including human effects from exposure to counter-material lasers direct and scattered radiation and laser-induced plasmas from counter-personnel lasers. - Initiate examination of specific non-lethal effects and effectiveness associated with the laser-induced plasma phenomenon.
FY 2007 Plans: - Continue all efforts of FY 2006. - Initiate refinement of directed energy weapon models through research into non-lethal phenomena and assessment of human effects and weapon effectiveness. - Initiate exploration of the use of light and sound to produce non-lethal human effects, to include saccade motion, discomfort and disability glare, flash-blindness, and potential cognitive effects, with level of light/sound stimuli below hazardous levels. - Initiate exploration of long range, wireless, extended duration electrically induced neuromuscular incapacitation. Investigations will include the development of appropriate metrics of dose response for various levels and characteristics of electrical stimulation. - Initiate applied research in the development of counter-personnel and counter-material directed energy non-lethal weapons, including counter-vehicle and advanced active denial activities.
This DOES show funding jumping by a factor of five for FY2007 and falling back to three times as much as the budget for FY2005. That could just be a budgetary trick, and will readily concede that there is money being buried in other things that will be applied towards this type of work.
I really don't think we disagree all that much, except you think the concept of manned aircraft is already obsolete in concept now, and will be in actuality in 6-10 years. I simply don't think that is the case at all with respect to the obsolencence timeline for both now and 6-10 years.
Forgot the budget (it was in millions of dollars, I converted to actual millions by adding three zeroes so this is dollars...:)
FY2005 (ACT) - $1,880,000
FY2006 (EST) - $8,910,000
FY2007 (PRO) - $6,036,000
FY2008 (PRO) - $6,043,000
FY2009 (PRO) - $6,043,000
FY2010 (PRO) - $6,043,000
FY2011 (PRO) - $6,043,000
1) Use the F-22s to ensure air dominance leaving the "legacy" fighters to clean up the garbage.
2) Develope small sized drones with air to air capability, and flood the sky with them. If they can do it, why cannot we?
I think it was the F-15 Streak Eagle that MD used to break numerous records including time to climb.
Thanks again Kelly Johnson!!
that's what is done...
for this modern fighters can be bound into a tactical network sharing sensors with other fighters, sentrys, jstars, UAVs, ground units, space sensors etc etc...
the f-35 will feature a new generation visualization system to bring these informations to the pilot efficiently via a helmet mounted device. These systems are allready implied in F-18s, Eurofighters and F-22 but the F-35 will feature some more 'infotainment'.
BTW I don't see a big miracle with the F-35 having better sensors in 2012 then the EF had in 2002. So if we both compare our state of planning with the state of what is fielded, we can both admire the advanced techonoly of our homelands - convenient since that's what we are really good at:
Celebrating our superiority.
I have fond memories of my visit to Germany in 1985.
My friends there are Schweibish.
Yammamoto was litterally shot down in a tranport plane in the South Pacific by P38's. Hence his comment about the last thing Yammamoto ever saw.
There were several reasons for the German kill rates.
(What you mention)
1. They didnt rotate their pilots. A US pilot had a tour so to say.
2. The US entered the war later in reality. The war began in 1939 and we really didnt enter until 1941. We missed 2/5th of the war.
(But there is more)
1. Understand that near ALL of those German aces with these immense kill numbers racked up these scores against the Russians; a force that was flying obsolete planes and had pilots that in part barely could take off and land.
You mention that we started out in the war flying obsolete planes. Well, youre right. The P40 was inferior o a Zero or ME109, but the Russians fly even worse planes! They were flying P39s in part!
2. The Germans were very glorifying and self loving with their reporting on the war in this time. They tended to inflate their success significantly. Actually so did the Russians. If you sit down and to the math, the numbers dont add up. In other words, the Russians claimed to have shot down more planes than the Germans ever built!
--
Back in reality mode, what you wrote is spot on. In the beginning he Germans with the ME109 (Their primary fighter through the whole war) was a superior plane. The Germans knew that war was on the horizon and they had prepared over years, actually nearly as soon as Hitler came o power. Events like Legion Condor in Spain helped hone the skill of German pilots and develop doctrine etc. In the beginning they had an advantage. Even the Spitfire was no plane in service at wars beginning.
However, as the US entered the war and began to fully mobilize this advantage in the beginning quickly faded away. Germany as a nation really didnt have a larger nor more capable aviation sector before the war, they had no real skills that were not present in the US, and in fact they had a smaller industrial capacity, lower population, and fewer resources. Once the wheels of war began rolling in the US quickly planes like the P51 began to dominate the skies over Europe. By wars end, neither their pilots, nor their planes were a match. As with the Battle of the Bulge, they even planned their military campaigns around avoiding US airpower by 1944. Once the weather cleared their Luftwaffe took a beating and was no long capable of defending their ground forces despite throwing at us all they had.
Ach Du Scheiße ! ;-)
Swabia is a very special part of germany - people are at their best if they are grumpy and they speak an idiom that noone should be ashamed to refuse to learn.
The highest degree of acceptance in the eye of a swabian is denoted to be 'not bad'. Some show a tendency to get excited (but that's not typical) and designate things to bte 'not bad at all' - but it can't get any better.
I'm an employee of a swabian company but I do live in the middle western part - actually just where the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany come together. the Town is called Aachen and has about 200 000 souls.
After build by the romans who loved the hot sulfur springs here it was the place where Karl the great residet 800 a.c. and reigned over a region that was not smaller than central europe. That's why there's a price issued frequently - called 'Karls Preis' to people that have contributed to the euopean idea.
Some people that have visited my small home town to pick up their price where:
'56 Winston Churchill
'59 George C. Marshall (the guy helped rebuilding germany thanks george !)
'87 Henry Kissinger
'99 Tony Blair
'00 William Jefferson C something (don't know that one - but his secret service bought all the cuban cigars from my favourite tobacco store - no joke !)
... to name some that might be familliar.
Europes largest technical university is here, too so it's a quite international town.
Might be worth a look - we have beer gardens the plenty ;-)
Lol,
may I put that one the right way ...
Wunderwaffen of germany is a typical american subject. Germans of today and yesterday could have cared less. In fact WWII is an obsession of yours not ours.
An old room mate was from Schorndorf which is near Stuttgart. While I was there, we visited the Mercedes factory and museum. It was early October then, so we hit the local Octoberfestivities.
His mom makes this delicious Swabian soup with a meat stuffed dumpling.
I think I had that 3 days in a row when I was there, at my request.
The roulladen was awesome too.
Sorry for my crappy spelling.
Zu mindest in Bezug des WWII, lebt der Deutsche in einer Welt der ME262, TigerII, geheime Atomwaffen Programme und was auch immer. Man möchte sich selbst halt nicht sehen als der jenige der wie in Stalingrad "Verheitzt" wurde. Man möchte lieber in einer Fantasie Welt leben-
Aber das ist zu verstehen. Der Deutsche hat einfach ein Problem mit der Wahrnehmung von der Realität. Von diesem "Aberglaube" in einer ordentlichen Sozialpolitik, oder die Unfähigkeit eine Bedrohung zu sehen in der radikal Islamistichen Bewegung oder sogar die einfache Leugnung das man in Bezug Irak den Amerikanern in den Rücken rein fiel obwohl man in dem selben Boot mit ihnen sitzt, all diese Probleme in dieser Region zusammen hängen, und das viele sogar die meisten Gründe des Krieges sich im nachhinein als "korrekt" erwiesen haben- Der Deutsche hat einfach eine sehr Verdrehte Weltanschauung die von zum Teil Demagogen geführt wird, und großen teils auf blinde Ideologie basiert.
You're probably right, it was me or an American who mentioned a limited production rifle that was fielded in low numbers in post #90.
Lol,
I have to make it to a US republican board to get reminded on Maultaschensuppe...
I've been working for quite a while in Böblingen (same area) and enjoyed the nice landscape and local micro breweries there. Actually I was in the DaimlerChrysler factory in Sindelfingen quite often setting up things for the Maybach Production.
I find some meals they have quite disgusting (Kutteln) wich is the big stomach of the cow as a soup (yukk).
Maultaschen are really good especially if fried after cooking with some of the swabian egg noodles (spätzle).
Sorry, but I think it's illegal to send fresh meals to a US adress - these dumplings are only enjoyable if fresh.
:-)
As always all I got to hear from you is a huge lament what germans cannot do and where they fail to see things the right way.
It's allways about why we fall for bad ideologies on every occasion, why our weapon technique is obsolete and faulty, why our WWII technology was inferior to american developements in any given field, why we are socialists and underachievers, unfree, unhealthy, unfriendly, uneducated, unshaved people.
Well I know all that :)
But why oh why is it, you try to entertain people with these facts ?
Did your wife run away with a german ?
I think I remember maultaschensuppe slightly different than in this picture. Perhaps the bowl I was eating out of was larger, because the dumplings look pretty large.
I think it was in Boblingen where I saw Frank Zappa perform in 1985. I still have the ticket stub...I will have to look when I get home.
I remember that the locals there in Schorndorf like Pils style beer the best.
I wish that I had known about Heffeweizen when I was in Germany, because I don't know what I am getting here in terms of authenticity.
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