Posted on 07/15/2006 3:20:15 PM PDT by Jeff Head
WILCO. I do not believe these are pics of battle damage at all at this point. My source is mistaken IMHO. But the thread is very good all the same. Lots of good knowledge and discussion here.
I trust you are doing well.
5.56mm
This is a great thread. Lots of good discussion and info. See my post 142 I am doubting these are battle damage pics at all.
Jeff if one hit the ship we are seeing it was topside and went through the deck. That alone would do significant damage to a limited area accounting for the stained discharged ports. If it didn't detonate it still could have wreaked a few hours havoc on support systems. The could have taken a hit that still left them mission capable. If they used hull numbers this would help a lot LOL. I know what water Discharge ports look like and what Ventilation ports look like. That one is for water or sewage etc. Ships use sea water for many operations as they eliminate the need for air cooled radiators, Condensers, and other equipment that would be air cooled. Heat on a ship especially one with electronics is not a welcomed thing. We even used water cooled condensers on our ice makers.
That does not look like a damage hole to me, but rather an exhaust port. However, the soot is in **front** of the hole, indicating that fire came out of that port with the ship moving little if at all.
Otherwise, the soot would be behind the exhaust port.
5.56mm
I am doubting that these particular pics are post battle damage at this point...but we shall see. I believe good pics will be forthcoming from Haifa during daylight hours over there.
There are stains forward and aft in the orignal pics. Now, see post 146. That's a pic that is definitely not related to yesterday's action.
Good to know. Unexpected. Soot tends to be behind the direction of primary travel, but apparently there are exceptions.
Safe to say that no damage is being shown in any of those pictures, regardless.
The thing to remember about the CIWS, is in the automated missile defense mode, it will fire as soon as a target enters it's envelope, and match certain criteria. No human intervention required. This mode, is probably not the smartest mode to be in, with fast gunships zooming around, as the scenario presents itself.
In Manual mode, somebody has to turn a key, and designate a target as hostile. Takes a few seconds longer, but not much longer, and well within that 60 second envelope that has been estimated that they had.
Plenty long enough to detonate the missile at close range, which will still do crippling damage to the ship, but nowhere near the amount, if it had actually struck and detonated.
60 seconds from launch to impact...probably a whole lot less from acquisition to impact, maybe 15-20. Maybe almost zero if reports bear out that the systems were not active.
I thought so too. Doesn't look to tidy there, does it. Here's a cut with a little enhancement. Still can't make sense of what it's supposed to be. You could be right!!
I've never see soot come from a discharge port though. I think this is likely the ship. Interesting point too is the pneumatic fenders handing from the aft port side. The soot points to something happening below decks. I could have wiped out the heat exchanger for an emergency generator or even a main engine. Such a rupture in that case would most likely produce soot normally not seen. The account of the thud says likely dud or fragments from a near miss one of the two. Then again it may not be soot we are seeing but good old fashioned crud jarred loose from a near by explosion or the ship being jarred by a dud.
Keep in mind when I say heat exchanger I mean the salt water radiator for the engines. They use water cooled radiators which are referred to as heat exchangers. If this is the case the engines cooling systems may be capable of cross connecting and one exchanger serve both.
15-20 seconds would have been plenty, if the watchstanders are sharp, and on the ball, as I assume the IDF guys are.
Here is the doctrine aboard the FF I was stationed on, for a late reported missile. Once the threat bearing is known, via ECM or a lookout, the OOD immediately turns to put the threat, 20 degrees abaft the beam, or about 110 relative, if the missile is coming in on the starboard side. This creates the greatest separation between the ship, and the missile, without presenting a large radar cross-section. Next, SRBOC (chaff) and/or Flares are launched on the side away from the threat, in this case, the port, so as soon as the ship clears, there is a large bloom, astern of the ship, if it's a radar or IR missile.
At the same time, when a missile call is heard, the system is brought out of standby, and if nothing else, the CIWS is quick. About 2 1/2 seconds, and it can acquire a target, and be ready to fire.
Probably some brown stained pants on the bridge, because it all happens so quick, but only a near miss detonation, or near miss destruction, can explain how the ship survived, and yes, the Israeli's read our tactical doctrine, including missile defense. It goes a long way to explaining why the damage is on the stern, and apparently, on the far side of the flight deck. A large chunk of the missile, probably went ballistic after the explosion, causing the damage.
I am sure the IDF's must be very similar.
I still want to find out if the reports about the systems not being active are true. I find that impossible to beleive or consider in such an environment. We shall see. As it is, I have come tobelieve at this point that these picks do not represent pics of after action damage.
This idea that any ship hit is "done for" does not withstand historical scrutiny.
The tin cans of that era are a far cry from their modern descendants. They had actual armor, where a modern DD generally doesn't.
Also, most of the weight of a shell is the shell, not the warhead/payload. The Silkworm actually carries more explosive than a 14" shell.
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