Posted on 07/15/2006 3:20:15 PM PDT by Jeff Head
Here are the first pictures I am aware of of the damaghed IDF Naval vessel, the Saar 5. Fron these pictures, it is clear that the ship was hit at an angle that would have allowed the CIWS to engage if it was active. I am now leaning towards the systems not being engaged at the time of attack.
IMHO, if true, as some reports have indicated today (buit that I did not want to believe), it would be a fatal and inexcusable mistake in the environment the vessel found itself in...defending other IDF gunboats against air attack during shore bombardment.
Please see the following FR thread for much more discussion and assessment:
Initial assessment of C-802 missile engagment against IDF Saar 5
Yea I saw the article elsewhere that DEBKA put out and I think you're right. Obviously too that chopper was likely not there when it hit.
The crew committment for combat is almost 100%, with most of them in the CIC. So, if they were running a normal 1/3 watch, they may well not have had the systems activated.
Here's a cut from it showing the openings better.
Post 112 & 119 the hole is a discharge port & supposed to be there. The actual hit area is only visible on picture one just fwd of the helo pad above the water line.
Thanks for the blow up. Definately a discharge port. NOT a hit hole.
Obiously the answer is to operate all Saars in seaside caves. Of course that'd make outgoing fire a bit challenging...
Agree on the helo
"...Are we going to tow it, or power it? Will it have nuke power plant? How fast can it go? What if, God forbid, the sailors on the ship need to see the shore line, for navigation? Have you considered that if the Phalanx fired and hit the steel decoy, the ricochets would pepper the ship? I don't know Admiral, I think you need to study this proposal a little more...."
Now you are making desparate, red-herring arguments.
Navigation is done nowadays with GPS. If the missile managed to hop the decoy (and you are assuming that the missile could know that the decoy is, in fact, a decoy...in itself unlikely, if the decoy was properly constructed), it (anti-ship missile) would be well above the decoy and the frigate...if the decoy was 50 meters from the ship (about 165 feet), the Phalanx system would have 0.2 seconds to acquire and engage the target. It seems like a stretch to believe that it would fire.
I know, now that we have this catamaran with 3" steel plate under chobham armor, let's mount a phalanx on it!
Oooh! Oooh! I know, let's move all of the weapons systems over to it! And the sailors, I mean, after all, the decoy is much better armored than the corvette, with the same armament, right? Then, we could use the corvette as the decoy!
%-)
"...Whale, I have better fish to fry, so I'll clam up. I said all of this on porpoise...."
Don't quit your day job.
They've never been able to get a Navy pilot who would do it. Maybe a Marine?
(ducking. Oh, man, am I ever ducking)
Not at all! Drill holes in the roof of the cave, and launch missles vertically. For NGFS, just use GPS guided munitions. Those things can turn on a dime!
Could be tow cable, but it also resembles anchor line.
True. Here's a blurb from the Jerusalem Post that has some more detail. The ship was towed from the zone. Could have dropped anchor once it got out of harm's way.
[snip] "The Sa'ar 5-class missile ship returned to the Ashdod port and was said to have sustained damage to its rear hull near the helicopter pad. After being towed from the site of the attack, the ship had its sailing capability restored and made its way to the port under its own power. The navy is investigating the incident."
[snip]
"The C-802 missiles, a senior Military Intelligence officer said Saturday, were made in China but upgraded by Iran, which had made improvements to the radar-guided system and delivered it to Hizbullah. Senior naval officers admitted Saturday night that they were taken completely by surprise by the missile attack, claiming that they did not know that Hizbullah possessed such advanced capabilities. The missile has a 100-kilometer range."
[snip]
"Officials confirmed that the anti-missile detection systems were not operating at the time of the attack since the navy was apparently unaware that Hizbullah had such capabilities. Hizbullah also has Iranian-made drones, which officials warned could serve as more accurate weapons than missiles when rigged with explosives." [Endquote]
Yeah, but try putting a helo in that hangar.
I haven't been able to find a photo of that class taken from the aft quarter. If anyone else can find one, I'd appreciate it if they'd post it and give me some pingage.
s'mthing isn't right about this whole scenario.
You put your "most advanced" AAW platform off a hostile coast, to guard your gunboats, then don't even turn on the AAW missile detection systems?
Hello?
The Israeli's are capable of some bone-head moves, just as we are, but they're also pretty crafty.
I smell a sucker trap. Two reasons. 1. The Iranians are now exposed as being in Lebanon, those lovable Peacable Persians... and 2. An identical missle sunk a freighter, but only did relatively minor damage to a floating beer can of a frigate.
Hrrmmmph.
Several milliseconds, actually. After several seconds it would be in the next time zone.
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