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Support States' Rights - OK Medical Pot
Real Clear Politics ^ | 6/25/2006 | Debra Saunders

Posted on 06/26/2006 8:22:44 AM PDT by bassmaner

If ever a piece of legislation should pass readily through the U.S. House of Representatives, it is a measure sponsored by Rep. Maurice Hinchey, D-N.Y., and Dana Rohrabacher, R-Calif., that would prevent the Department of Justice from using tax dollars to prosecute medical-marijuana patients in states that have legalized medical marijuana. Because it is a good bill, expect it to fail.

Polls show that some three out of four Americans support allowing doctors to prescribe medical marijuana for patients who need it. Members must know that constituents within their districts use marijuana to control pain and nausea -- their families would like to live without the fear of prosecution. As Time Magazine reported last year, research shows that the drug has salutary "analgesic and anti-inflammatory effects."

Republicans should be drawn to the states' rights angle of the bill, while Democrats should go for the personal stories of constituents who have found relief, thanks to medical marijuana.

Yet when the House last voted on the measure in 2005, it tanked in a 264-162 vote. As the House is scheduled to consider the measure this week, few expect the measure to pass. "I wish I could tell you it's going to pass," Marijuana Policy Project spokesman Bruce Mirken conceded by phone last week. "I can't realistically expect that."

Over the last decade, two big hurdles existed: Republicans and Democrats. Last year, a mere 15 Repubs voted for the measure -- down from 19 GOP members who supported it in 2004. On the other side of the aisle, Democrats are moving toward the light. In 1998, the Clinton Justice Department filed suit against California medical-marijuana clubs. Last year, however, an impressive 145 Dems voted for Hinchey-Rohrabacher.

Martin Chilcutt of Kalamazoo, Mich., has written to his local GOP congressman, Rep. Fred Upton. A veteran who believes he got cancer because of his military service, Chilcutt told me that his Veterans Administration hospital doctors supported his use of medical marijuana when he had cancer.

Upton's office told me that Upton believes Marinol, the legal synthetic drug that includes the active ingredient in marijuana, should do the trick.

I asked Chilcutt if he had tried the drug. "I don't like Marinol at all," Chilcutt replied. It takes too long to work, it is hard to calibrate the dose you need, and "it made me feel weird." He prefers marijuana because it works instantly -- "You can control the amount you're using, and you get instant feedback."

Upton also fears sending the wrong message to kids about marijuana. But federal law has long allowed the sick access to needed pain control with drugs more powerful than marijuana. Only bad politics can account for the fact that marijuana is a Schedule 1 drug under the Controlled Substances Act, and thus deemed more harmful than cocaine and morphine -- drugs that can kill users who overdose.

Alex Holstein, a former GOP operative and conservative activist, is lobbying Republicans on behalf of the Marijuana Policy Project. He believes that regardless of their position on medical marijuana, Repubs in the California delegation should support Hinchey-Rohrabacher because state voters approved Proposition 215 -- and Republicans should stand up for states' rights and the will of California voters.

As it is, President Bush should direct the Justice Department to lay off medical-marijuana users -- because it is the right thing to do for sick people.

It's not as if the administration doesn't know how to sit on its hands and not enforce existing law. Last week, The Washington Post reported that under Bush, the number of employers prosecuted for hiring illegal aliens plummeted from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003.

If the Bushies can look the other way when well-heeled employers break the law, they can look the other way when sick people try to relieve unnecessary pain.


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: addiction; anslingers; drugskilledbelushi; ghost; jackbootedthugs; knowyourleroy; leroyisinthehouse; leroyknowshisrights; libertarians; marijuana; mrleroybait; pot; rohrabacher; warondrugs; wod; wodlist
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To: DouglasKC

You're resting your case on that? I hope you aren't a lawyer, or if you are, I hope for your clients' sake you don't have any.


201 posted on 07/02/2006 1:27:43 AM PDT by Nate505
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To: DouglasKC
I know you're probably a liberal and don't listen, but Rush Limbaugh made a good point. Libertarians want to pretend that everything they want to affects nobody else. Take drug use. A person using drugs affects wives, kids, loved ones and society in ways to numerous to mention. Just because drug users are too brain fried and selfish to see the truth doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Yeah, Rush would be an expert on that subject.

202 posted on 07/02/2006 1:30:20 AM PDT by Nate505
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To: robertpaulsen
It could be that just handling the tainted drug releases the spores to be inhaled. Personally, if I was on chemo, I wouldn't want to be in the same room.

Certainly precautions ought to be taken, particularly by patients with compromised immune systems, but that falls well short of an argument for a blanket ban on medical use.

There are other drugs for nausea, you know. And they work quite well.

The fact that there's more than one reminds us that not every patient responds the same way to a drug ... which is exactly why marijuana ought to be an available option.

203 posted on 07/02/2006 2:44:32 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: robertpaulsen
They documented the claims. That's all.

In rebuttal I quote your post #155: "This report summarizes and analyzes what is known about the medical use of marijuana; it emphasizes evidence-based medicine (derived from knowledge and experience informed by rigorous scientific analysis) ..."

204 posted on 07/02/2006 2:46:34 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Know your rights
"Certainly precautions ought to be taken, particularly by patients with compromised immune systems,"

If certain precautions should be taken, why isn't that written into state law? Perhaps it should be banned until they figure it out, huh?

"which is exactly why marijuana ought to be an available option."

Hey, as long as it goes through the same process as the other drugs I have no problem with that.

205 posted on 07/02/2006 3:02:26 PM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: Know your rights
Fine. They documented the research which claimed the medical benefits.

As to whether or not marijuana actually has medical benefits, that remains to be seen with further study.

206 posted on 07/02/2006 3:08:52 PM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: DouglasKC
Marijuana need not be smoked ... and whether those benefits outweigh the harms of smoking is not for government to decide.

Well that's exactly what the left wants, the freedom to smoke marijuana. It's got nothing to do with medicine since Marinol, a pure medicine derived from the plant, is already available.

Oral delivery has slow onset and is thus more difficult to titrate than a breathed medicine; and patients with nausea often can't keep pills down.

Of course there are other medicines that are more effective.

More effective for EVERY patient? Can you suppor that claim?

Rush Limbaugh made a good point. Libertarians want to pretend that everything they want to affects nobody else.

If Rush is claiming that "affecting someone else" is the test for justifying government force, he's no longer a conservative. The true test, of course, is whether rights are violated ... which they are not by drug sale and use.

A person using drugs affects wives, kids, loved ones and society in ways to numerous to mention.

Also true of the drug alcohol. Shall we re-ban that drug?

And if we're criminalizing "potential to harm our society" where do we stop? Ban junk food? Enforce bedtimes for adults? I didn't see your answer to this question.

That's because that line of argument is a leftist ploy designed to minimize drug use. It's no worse than eating junk food or not getting enough sleep.

That's not the argument.

Kids, drugs are for idiots.

Misrepresenting one's opponent's argument is for idiots.

So it's OK to ban things that make people vote liberal? Attending Harvard? Reading the NY Times?

There you go again. Taking drugs is no worse than attending Harvard or reading the New York Times.

Another cowardly misrepresentation. Imagine my surprise.

207 posted on 07/02/2006 3:42:49 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: robertpaulsen
If certain precautions should be taken, why isn't that written into state law?

I think it should be, until we get to the real solution of legalizing and regulating production.

Perhaps it should be banned until they figure it out, huh?

Nah, the energy expended on banning would be better spent on legislating and/or publicizing those precautions.

Hey, as long as it goes through the same process as the other drugs I have no problem with that.

You mean the same process as other drugs that don't offer potential for large profits ... namely, the orpahn-drug process? That would certainly beat a flat ban ... although I prefer to see less government interference in medicine across the board.

208 posted on 07/02/2006 3:48:34 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: robertpaulsen
They documented the research which claimed the medical benefits.

The "claims" of medical research are more than just "claims."

As to whether or not marijuana actually has medical benefits, that remains to be seen

You can set the burden of proof as high as you like for yourself (and your minor children) ... just so long as you let sick people and their doctors make their own decisions.

209 posted on 07/02/2006 3:51:14 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Know your rights
"A person using drugs affects wives, kids, loved ones and society in ways to numerous to mention.
Also true of the drug alcohol. Shall we re-ban that drug?"

No. That's moving in the opposite direction. Let's compound the problem by legalizing more drugs!

210 posted on 07/03/2006 4:40:11 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: Know your rights
"You mean the same process as other drugs that don't offer potential for large profits"

Huh? Who's talking about those? The same process for approval as was done for the other nausea drugs.

Problem with English?

211 posted on 07/03/2006 4:44:21 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
Let's compound the problem by legalizing more drugs!

If legalizing more drugs is "compounding the problem" then banning more drugs, such as alcohol, must be lessening the problem. Do you support that, and if not, why not?

212 posted on 07/03/2006 5:37:35 AM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: robertpaulsen
You mean the same process as other drugs that don't offer potential for large profits

Huh? Who's talking about those?

You should be, since medical marijuana fits the description, and you're such a fan of established regulatory processes.

213 posted on 07/03/2006 5:39:57 AM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Know your rights
"Do you support that, and if not, why not?"

Nope.

We tried it once. It lasted 13 short years. The people didn't want Prohibition. They still don't.

214 posted on 07/03/2006 5:42:18 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
The people didn't want Prohibition.

They did when it began. It took them only 13 years to learn the lessons today's Americans are still slowly figuring out after 30 years of the war on drugs ... but as a conservative I have no problem saying Americans had more common sense 70 years ago.

215 posted on 07/03/2006 6:08:13 AM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Know your rights
Oral delivery has slow onset and is thus more difficult to titrate than a breathed medicine; and patients with nausea often can't keep pills down.

There are virtually NO reputable doctors that would argue that the benefit that comes from smoking a plant substance offsets the danger. But I expect you'll stop arguing for smoking pot as a medicine when this Dronabinol inhaler comes on the market?

More effective for EVERY patient? Can you suppor that claim?

Why would I have to support that claim?? If just one person claims that smoking marijuana is better than taking any legally available, studied, metered and dosed medicine does that mean we HAVE to consider marijuana a medicine? That's like saying we should be able to legally sell and take heroin on every street corner because it makes a lot of people feel good.

If Rush is claiming that "affecting someone else" is the test for justifying government force, he's no longer a conservative. The true test, of course, is whether rights are violated ... which they are not by drug sale and use.

You're going to have a tough time convincing anyone that Rush isn't a conservative. Why can't you just face the fact that you hold a liberal viewpoint on this issue?

Rights, as defined by the constitution, are inalienable rights granted by God to the people he created. God certainly didn't intend that people smoke dope or other drugs. They are the antithesis of the type of life God intends people to lead and drug use is specifically listed as one of those thing that are not Godly, but are works of the flesh.

A person using drugs affects wives, kids, loved ones and society in ways to numerous to mention.
Also true of the drug alcohol. Shall we re-ban that drug?

Let me get this straight, your argument is that we should allow any harmful substance because some people abuse alcohol?

That's because that line of argument is a leftist ploy designed to minimize drug use. It's no worse than eating junk food or not getting enough sleep.
That's not the argument.

That's not the argument, but it's certainly the ploy the left uses to make drug use more acceptable.

Kids, drugs are for idiots.
Misrepresenting one's opponent's argument is for idiots.

Equating drug use with attending Harvard, eating junk food and sleep is an idiotic line of argument.

216 posted on 07/03/2006 7:51:50 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
There are virtually NO reputable doctors that would argue that the benefit that comes from smoking a plant substance offsets the danger.

The Institute of Medicine said they very well might for terminal patients. How's that crow taste?

But I expect you'll stop arguing for smoking pot as a medicine when this Dronabinol inhaler comes on the market?

I'll argue that those who can afford the latter should certainly consider it first.

If just one person claims that smoking marijuana is better than taking any legally available, studied, metered and dosed medicine does that mean we HAVE to consider marijuana a medicine?

It means the decision should be left to patient and doctor.

If Rush is claiming that "affecting someone else" is the test for justifying government force, he's no longer a conservative. The true test, of course, is whether rights are violated ... which they are not by drug sale and use.

You're going to have a tough time convincing anyone that Rush isn't a conservative.

Conservative is as conservative does. Conservatism existed long before Rush and is not defined by him.

Rights, as defined by the constitution, are inalienable rights granted by God to the people he created. God certainly didn't intend that people smoke dope or other drugs.

Where's the evidence that He intended people to imprison other people for it?

A person using drugs affects wives, kids, loved ones and society in ways to numerous to mention.

Also true of the drug alcohol. Shall we re-ban that drug?

Let me get this straight, your argument is that we should allow any harmful substance because some people abuse alcohol?

No, my argument is that if you believed the principle you're proclaiming you'd support banning alcohol ... yet you don't.

That's because that line of argument is a leftist ploy designed to minimize drug use. It's no worse than eating junk food or not getting enough sleep.

That's not the argument.

That's not the argument

Then don't drag that straw man into this exchange.

Kids, drugs are for idiots.

Misrepresenting one's opponent's argument is for idiots.

Equating drug use with attending Harvard, eating junk food and sleep is an idiotic line of argument.

I didn't make that line of argument. Leave your straw men at the door.

217 posted on 07/03/2006 9:22:19 AM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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To: Know your rights
The Institute of Medicine said they very well might for terminal patients. How's that crow taste?

There's no danger if you're going to die soon, is there? From the "Institute of Medicine" report:

Smoking marijuana is not recommended. The long-term harm caused by smoking marijuana makes it a poor drug delivery system, particularly for patients with chronic illnesses.
Terminal cancer patients pose different issues. For those patients the medical harm associated with smoking is of little consequence. For terminal patients suffering debilitating pain or nausea and for whom all indicated medications have failed to provide relief, the medical benefits of smoked marijuana might outweigh the harm.

If this is the "best" you guys have for experts recommending smoking marijuana, then you're on very shaky ground.

Note how very narrow and limited this ONE agency says smoked marijuana MIGHT be helpful. MIGHT.

To listen to the leftist propagandist one would think that smoking marijuana is the cure for every type of illness known to man.

But I expect you'll stop arguing for smoking pot as a medicine when this Dronabinol inhaler comes on the market?
I'll argue that those who can afford the latter should certainly consider it first.

Why am I not surprised. And if an inhaler were cheaper than buying pot would you THEN come out and condemn smoking marijuana as an effective medicine?

If just one person claims that smoking marijuana is better than taking any legally available, studied, metered and dosed medicine does that mean we HAVE to consider marijuana a medicine? It means the decision should be left to patient and doctor.

Let me guess....you're all for "assisted suicide" too, aren't you?

Rights, as defined by the constitution, are inalienable rights granted by God to the people he created. God certainly didn't intend that people smoke dope or other drugs.
Where's the evidence that He intended people to imprison other people for it?

Actually the penalty was death.

No, my argument is that if you believed the principle you're proclaiming you'd support banning alcohol ... yet you don't.

Of course I don't. Alcohol is biblically and legally sanctioned, although drunkneness is not.

That's because that line of argument is a leftist ploy designed to minimize drug use. It's no worse than eating junk food or not getting enough sleep. Then don't drag that straw man into this exchange. Kids, drugs are for idiots. Equating drug use with attending Harvard, eating junk food and sleep is an idiotic line of argument.

Hey, I'm not the one that compared drug use to:

A. Eating junk food.
B. Sleeping.
C. Attending Harvard.
D. Reading the New York Times.

If you don't want these comparisons to be called idiotic then don't make them.

218 posted on 07/03/2006 11:24:54 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Note how very narrow and limited this ONE agency says smoked marijuana MIGHT be helpful. MIGHT.

That's enough to indicate that the decision should be up to doctors and patients.

To listen to the leftist propagandist one would think that smoking marijuana is the cure for every type of illness known to man.

Why do you keep dragging in the alleged arguments of anonymous others? I've never argued that smoking marijuana is the cure for every type of illness known to man.

And if an inhaler were cheaper than buying pot would you THEN come out and condemn smoking marijuana as an effective medicine?

If there were cheaper and more effective inhalers for every medical condition for which there is evidence of marijuana's effectiveness, then I would agree that prescribing/recommending smoked marijuana is unsound medicine.

If just one person claims that smoking marijuana is better than taking any legally available, studied, metered and dosed medicine does that mean we HAVE to consider marijuana a medicine?

It means the decision should be left to patient and doctor.

Let me guess....you're all for "assisted suicide" too, aren't you?

No ... death doesn't treat any condition, whereas marijuana does.

Rights, as defined by the constitution, are inalienable rights granted by God to the people he created. God certainly didn't intend that people smoke dope or other drugs.

Where's the evidence that He intended people to imprison other people for it?

Actually the penalty was death.

Where in the New Testament does it say that?

No, my argument is that if you believed the principle you're proclaiming you'd support banning alcohol ... yet you don't.

Of course I don't. Alcohol is biblically

The First Amendment clearly rules out basing laws solely on biblical grounds. (Not that the bible condemns marijuana.)

and legally sanctioned

You're arguing in circles; the question is whether, according to your professed principles, alcohol SHOULD be legally sanctioned ... and the answer is clearly no.

I'm not the one that compared drug use to:

A. Eating junk food.
B. Sleeping.
[That was "not getting enough sleep," actually.]

You said pot is illegal because of its "potential to harm our society;" I asked where we drew the line, and you falsely claimed I had equated pot use with A and B ... and you've still never honestly answered the actual question despite numerous opportunities.

C. Attending Harvard.
D. Reading the New York Times.

Again, you said that pot should be illegal because "Pot makes its users docile, stupid and susceptible to liberal propaganda. Since they can remain in this docile and stupid state for decades they make the perfect voting bloc for liberal propaganda." I asked where we drew the line, and you falsely claimed I had equated pot use with C and D ... and you've still never honestly answered the actual question despite numerous opportunities.

219 posted on 07/07/2006 1:35:42 PM PDT by Know your rights (The modern enlightened liberal doesn't care what you believe as long as you don't really believe it.)
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