I'm more upset with Conservatives than I am with George W. Bush

Hi ohioWfan,

Sorry, I missed seeing your reply last night, with all the fur flying and back-and-forth of the thread.

THANK YOU! for always fighting the good fight here on FR...obviously your son learned well from his parents!

So in honor of your son, and all the men and women in Iraq, Afghanistan, S. Korea, Bosnia, and everywhere the uniform is worn to defend our precious freedom...I say one more time to all the childish dodo-birds who somehow believe the turning control of our Congress and eventually our military over to THE LIBS will make things better for our nation...I ask you this once again...

Tell that to these guys...and their families!

I will take all of the abuse too. I agree with you. It seems some people have forgotten how it is when the rats are in charge. I have not, nor will I ever.

I am telling you the truth here, NewLand. Your beautiful post has brought me to tears.

THANK you, FRiend!

God bless our troops, and may they NEVER, EVER have to suffer under a leftist Commander in Chief again!

Yes, God Bless our troops...and God Bless our President.

Please pray for both, everybody.

Amen, NewLand!

Doing just that right HERE.

if we want the Republican Party to hold onto Congress and not get shot all to hell in November, the pressure needs to be on the Republican holdouts in Congress who won't go along with a fence now, not on the mass of conservatives angry about the border

Exactly! Some people mistakenly think the majority of the American people must conform to the desires of those we voted into office. That's NOT how it works in this country.

Ooooo Ethanol! Good for you. That's a cultural socially charged issue if ever there was one! Actually any alignment with leftist DimWits (like Feinstein) make me suspicious of any bills they bring forward, even with Kyl as co-sponsor. DimWits view EVERYTHING through partisan ideological motives. Her support alone would make me suspicious of this bill which oh by the way hurts American ethanol producers.

However I am referring to politically conservative issues or cultural social issues & values when I speak of your viewpoints. So far I have yet to see you on the side of conservatives and your views & threads put you solidly in the DimWit lib, leftist mainstream, which generally is the constituency that GW Bush makes his greatest efforts to pander & capitulate to. Hardly a conservative position!

I didn't read past your first paragraph you're so far out of context.

I never said anything at all about "building a third party." Funny how some people just make things up about what others said all along though, isn't it. ; )

I said if there was ever a time that 3PC could win, now is that time. That's it Vicomte! Nothing more. It really is that simple a notion.

You can keep on arguing points that I never made however if you like. Enjoy yourself. : )

It will force the Republicans to move more to the left to garner more independent/democratic votes.

The extreme right is scaring the moderates in the way the extreme left is. We will be better off to let the extreme right sit this one out. If we include them, we become guilty by association.

"Let me ask you, then:
(1) Are you going to vote for the Republicans this November, even if they either do nothing and leave the status quo open border, or if they offer an amnesty and a fence? Yes or no?

(2) Will you vote for them if they vote to put up the fence, allocate funds and start doing it, without agreeing to an amnesty? Yes or no?

Those are the only three options likely to happen:
paralysis and status quo open border;
a fence and amnesty;
or just a fence.

Will you vote for the Republicans if they do any of those three things?"

Paralysis and status quo open border is unacceptable as is a fence with amnesty. If the best we can do is a fence only, then yes, I would be forced to settle for that, but I would simultaneously keep the pressure on to punish employers who hire illegals and withdraw benefits as many states are beginning to do. The amount of money saved by withdrawing benefits could probably build several walls! And if these things are done, illegals will begin to deport themselves. BUT, that's 'ideal'. I still do not believe that the border issue, by itself, will be addressed or that Bush will do anything to effectively secure it. And, not to be forgotten is that while Bush may be pushing for 'earned amnesty' and 'talking' about securing the border, the illegals and their supporters are demanding just the opposite. And I think that they are willing to begin a Revolucion in order to get immediate legalization, open border, and return of their 'land' (aztlan). Personally, I almost wish they would. If Bush thinks his idea for 'earned' amnesty is going to appease them, perhaps he needs a Revolucion in order to see just who he's dealing with behind those american flags.

http://www.mexica-movement.org/granmarcha.htm

"Exactly! Some people mistakenly think the majority of the American people must conform to the desires of those we voted into office. That's NOT how it works in this country."

It's not how it works in any country.
And it's not a matter of how it "ought to work" either.
It's just a simple fact: politicians horsetrade to stay in power. That's what being a politician IS. Every politician does it. Politics is the art of the possible.

Voters, by contrast, are often moved by only one particular issue. They do not hold their view professionally, and they do not negotiate professionally. Sometimes, with a lot of preparation and a lot of careful presentation to the public of fact and arguments over time, you can move some of the electorate on a particular issue.

But in general, screaming at the electorate that they are FOOLS if they abandon your party because politicians won't give them the policy they want (in this case, a fence) is bad politics.

It's bad because it's dumb. PEOPLE do not en masse move positions on things they've dug in on. They don't. They won't. The collective action problem is too great.

I note that the Republicans haven't even made an attempt at justifying not putting up a fence either. Rather, they're just ignoring their electorate, but then screaming harshly "Vote for us, you damned fools, or else we'll LOSE and you KNOW how bad the other side is!"

It's bone stupid.
That CANNOT work.
Masses of people who have dug in on an issue are not going to move. It's the politicians who have to move. These are just the realities of human psychology, doesn't matter what the issue is.

So, IF there's no border fence agreed on this year, there will be a Democratic Congress. It's just the way it is. No amount of screaming or venting or anything else can change that dynamic, because a mass of millions of angry conservatives simply cannot move that fast on an issue on which they've dug in. They can't, and they won't.

So, instead of hectoring the immovable object, the smart Republican play is to hector the movable object. Politicians CAN be threatened politically. They CAN be forced to back down, eat crow, reverse themselves, flip-flop. They all do it to keep power. It's their JOB to compromise. The saving compromise here is to postpone talk of amnesty until after the election, but vote for, fund and start building the border fence NOW.

THAT is what will save the Republican Party in November.
Anything else, including screaming at the border conservatives that they are morons, traitors or stealth Democrats is NOT going to win the election and save the Republican Party.

There is great danger to the Republicans right now, and to the country. The fellow on the thread who is frantic that a Democratic majority means that we will lose the war thanks to a Democrat-directed pullout is probably right: we probably will.
So, we CAN'T afford a Democrat takeover of Congress.
But we are GOING to lose Congress if the Border Conservatives are not brought back.

Now, SOMEONE has got to cave in on his position.
Will it be 3 million Border Conservatives? (No, it won't be. It can't be. That's not how people work, anywhere, ever.)
So it's GOT to be about 10 Republican Senators.
THAT is where all of the ire and all of the focus has to be. THEY are going to lose the Congress, lose the war, and get the President impeached if they will not back down, do a flip-flop, and vote for a fence.

It's the way it is.
Getting mad at ME about it, or at the conservative voters, is not a winning strategy.
If you want to win, use all of the abusive invective at the Republican holdouts in the Senate who won't budge on the border fence.

McCain is vulnerable: he wants to be President.
Bush is vulnerable: he wants to STAY President.
Focus on them and their ilk: FENCE THE BORDER NOW, Amnesty later.

That's the simple strategy to win.
Everything else will lose. Guaranteed.

It's a tense issue.

I have hope that, after exhausting all the alternatives and seeing defeat staring them in the face, the Republicans in the Senate finally cave and vote for a fence, with some pledge of talking about amnesty next year.

That will save them politically.
Nothing else will.

It is also the most important step that can be taken to get immigration under control. Get a working, effective fence up, and the illegal immigration problem will become much more manageable over time.

I like to refute the trolls and disruptors whenever I am in the mood....lol.

You know onyx, I gave a lot of thought to your reply...at heart I'm still a 'Reagan' guy in the way that he always disapproved and thus put a stop to the internal squabbling among Republicans...especially at general election time.

But after more thought and prayer, I believe you are right and we do have to take these interlopers head-on...even the long time FReepers who have turned to the dark side in their belief that it's more important to lose and be "right".

This would mean disaster for our troops, starting in 2007.

So, I'm going to fight the good fight, right here, against other long time players...because the stakes are too high and we've got to protect our men and women in uniform.

NL

Indeed. Sometimes 'keeping the peace' means losing the war.

I have no doubt that what is going on here is war..........of a spiritual nature. It is quite different than political discussion..........even spirited debate.

The stakes are far too high.......the life of the unborn, the future of our troops, and so much more. FAR too high to let the left regain control of this country. And the divisiveness on this forum is an overt attempt to do just that.

Thank you, New Land!

not amnesty

that aside,are you people saying the dims are going to handle the illegals problem better? What is their plan?

Why didn't Clinton do something about it - he had 8 years without a 9-11 or Iran, or hurricanes - Yeah, we need them back in the WH

I think you misunderstand me, I DON'T want the dims back in power, but I have to wonder about a party that pretty much has congress and the WH locked up , yet still won't stand up against the invaders, simply enforce the law thats it. Poll after poll shows the American people want a secure border, the GOP's popularity is sinking lower than Al Frankin's ratings, they have an issue that should be a natural for them, and they're blowing it. Why? $$$ from the corporate lobby? Maybe. If I were GWB I'd come out in favor of a fortified wall on the border, massive sanctions against employers hiring illegals and to h*ll with the Mexican gvt. Let the liberals come out against that , they'll be slaughtered at the polls.

Good points.......well said!

Well, the good news is that it looks as though the Republicans in the Senate get it, and are going to get a border-closing plan through next week.

I just watched Frist on O'Reilly. He looks and sounds like a man who "gets it". Assuming that enough Republican Senators understand that there's nowhere to hide, and actually vote for that border fence, you'll see the conservatives rush back into the Republican fold to protect the gain just made. And the parade of the horribles won't have to happen.

Frist clearly "gets it". The House already gets it.
If a few more Senators will do what needs to be done, we'll avoid the train wreck and have a win. (I am assuming that Bush will not execute the first veto of his Presidency to shoot down border control).

That's good news. Frist has had trouble being a leader. Hopefully, he can convince others to 'get it' too.......

They see the polls.
They hear their constituents.
I'm feeling better about things tonight than in months.

He's still talking about guest worker, though, so I guess we're going to have to see if a real border fence with real patrols and real enforcement will be enough for border conservatives to be willing to come out and vote for the Republicans one more time, even though there might be some sort of guest worker program.

My guess is yes, barely.

Of course it could all fly to pieces next week, but I think that everyone senses that it's do-or-die time.