Posted on 03/05/2006 8:33:05 AM PST by HuntsvilleTxVeteran
This is a new channel on Dish Network. They play Ducumentaries 24/7. This is the first time I have seen "Waco, The rules of engagement.
Anything about "Waco Wesley "Clarke?
Yes, you are right. I heard people say, "well they killed all them crazies in Texas". I'd say to them, yeah, old adolph would be proud of all of you. One of the most disgusting points in history in my life time. Klintoon and his pal janet goering should have been arrested and tried for this. Disgusting people, the whole lot. I think it was a case of the government flexing their muscles to keep the "sheeple" in line. A horrible event, in any case.
Unfortunately, at least in the "Democratically controlled" family I married into, most of the people I talked to just bought the standard media line about Koresh and the Davidians being a bunch of religious nuts who pretty much brought it on themselves, and good riddance.
Not only that, but the NRA tried to get hold of the guns that were supposedly illegally converted to full auto (the pretext for the raid to begin with). Chuck Schumer and his minions hissed like a vampire smelling garlic, and absolutely prohibited that. No one really knows if the guns were illegally converted or not.
I suggest you read some material on the subject before making assumptions about anything. For specific information about Waco and CS Gas, read the link on post #23. I will bash our government when it is warranted, and in the case of Waco, they deserve to be bashed. To imply that our government deliberately does harm to it's people and devil be damned, is disingenuous.
When the fed shot in the flash bangs on the windward side of the compound, the place burned to the ground in minutes...
CS is not as flammable as gasoline, but it was an accelerent none the less.
I saw that but it isn't in agreement with the EPA.
See page 6 here:
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:M50UsbZ4zFMJ:yosemite.epa.gov/R10/CLEANUP.NSF/6ea33b02338c3a5e882567ca005d382f/559663270b69278488256be60057aea6/%24FILE/deconmp.PDF+cs+gas+emits+cyanide&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3
It's hard to know who to believe the EPA or PBS both are arms of the same government that murdered the men, women and children in Waco. But this time I think I'll go with the EPA.
Appointment with The Apocalypse- the Waco Files
various FR links | 04-28-03 | The Heavy Equipment Guy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/901664/posts
A Graveyard Called Waco
Published: November 1999 Author: Gerald Posner
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3923ef366dec.htm
You're definitely correct in saying it hard to know who to believe. It's everyones right to their opinions. I only spoke up on the issue because of some assumptions by some people that were clearly wrong. I believe the whole Waco thing was a travesty, possibly one of the biggest blunders our government has ever committed on it's own people.
Also, when these "journalists" make these investigative documentaries, they tend to err on the side of sensationalism and conspiracy.
Clark is not the guy I'm wondering about .... the question that I still have is:
Was Clark's representative at Waco (now CofS General Schoomaker) Clark's ADC of Support (S) or Maneuver (M)? If Schoomaker was ADC (M) it's pretty clear a violation of Posse Comitus did occur.
This is from the Austin Chronicle see: here
http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2000-07-07/pols_feature2.html
The Power of CS
Invented in 1928, CS is called a "super tear gas" because it works instantaneously, causing burning eyes, coughing, breathing difficulty, stinging skin, and vomiting. CS -- the common name for orthochlorbenzalmalononitrile -- is a fine white powder, about the consistency of talcum powder, and it must be spread with some type of dispersing agent. But it has several nasty qualities, including its flammability. When burned, CS releases a deadly gas, hydrogen cyanide. And when methylene chloride -- the dispersing agent of choice -- is burned, it releases deadly hydrogen chloride and chlorine. Both chemicals, in turn, release large amounts of carbon monoxide. According to the Failure Analysis report, 44 of the 76 bodies recovered from Mount Carmel tested positive for cyanide. And according to the coroner's report, a quarter of the deaths at Mount Carmel were caused by carbon monoxide asphyxiation, while another 27% died of smoke inhalation.
Despite its potential drawbacks, CS had many of the advantages that the Army wanted. And in 1959, it adopted CS as its standard riot-control agent. But the Army has long been aware of its potential deadliness, particularly when used in enclosed spaces. One 1985 Army manual warns that CS "is not to be used in buildings, near hospitals, or in areas where lingering contamination could cause problems." In 1995, the Los Angeles Times quoted a spokesman for Federal Laboratories Inc., a company that makes CS gas, who explained that CS is designed for use in a large, open area. "If you were to shoot too much in a building or enclosed area, you could suffocate individuals," the spokesperson said.
The politics of CS were an ongoing irritant to the American military in Vietnam. In February of 1968, Gen. William Westmoreland, who commanded American troops in Vietnam, asked Washington for the authority to use CS during search and rescue missions in Laos. But diplomats in Washington were worried. Several stories had run in The New York Times that were critical of American use of "non-lethal gas" in Vietnam. And diplomats were worried because the Geneva Protocol of 1925 prohibited the use of "asphyxiating, poisonous, or other gases" during wartime. In a 1971 memo to President Richard Nixon, Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird discussed the implications of using CS gas during operations in North Vietnam and Cambodia. The State Department, he wrote, had "reservations" that were based on "anticipated charges of 'gas warfare'..."
Despite Laird's fears, CS gas became a favorite weapon of the American military in Vietnam. It was delivered in grenades against the Viet Cong in their underground tunnels. It was dropped from helicopters and airplanes in either powdered form or in small bomblets that dispersed the agent over a wide area. Some estimates put the amount of CS used during the Vietnam War at 15 million pounds.
After Vietnam, CS became popular among other militaries. Saddam Hussein's troops used it during Iraq's war against Iran. A few years later, after American troops routed Hussein's army, the UN Special Commission found that nearly half of Iraq's loaded chemical munitions contained not nerve agents or mustard gas, but CS. The compound was also used in the fighting in what was formerly Yugoslavia. In 1988, Amnesty International reported that medical personnel in Israel had cited tear gas as "the cause of or a contributory factor in the deaths of more than 40 Palestinians in the Occupied Territories." The report caused American manufacturers of CS to halt exports of the gas to Israel.
On Jan. 13, 1993, the United States and dozens of other countries signed the Chemical Weapons Convention, the most far-reaching treaty regarding prohibitions on the use of chemical weapons. The treaty bans the use of nerve agents, mustard gas, and other compounds, including tear gas, during wartime.
Three months and six days after the U.S. signed the convention, the FBI used CS on the Branch Davidians. end story
###
The article seems to be pretty even handed on the gas issue. You can read the whole thing on the link if you care to.
I think we are going to agree on Waco being a travesty, and disagree that it was a blunder. I think it started out as a blunder and ended with the FBI cleaning up the mess by murdering the victims and destroying all evidence.
I doubt the BATF thugs went out that Sunday morning to kill Pastor Koresh or his congregation. But once the congregation defended itself, things went from bad to worse in a hurry. I do think the FBI intentionally murdered the congregation, burned and bulldozed the church, and lied about what happened.
Ruby Ridge was under Bush I. Same (non) reaction.
I have had a lot of contact with CS as well- much of that in enclosed spaces. I had an M17AI mask failure in a sea hut when there was a gross overconcentration of the stuff inside- you could barely see your hand in front of your face even when the mask was working for the concentration of airborne particulates). That was unpleasant- I collapsed and my lungs seized up for a few minutes. A couple of guys dragged me away by my field gear.
This the first I have ever heard of CD having any 'cyanide content', whatsoever. I seem to recall that the operative theory way back when concerning Waco was that fire changed the chemistry of airborne CS into something different and more lethal. I'm not a chemistry geek, so I will leave the particulars of that question for someone who can better answer it.
As far as fire goes- fine airborne particulates tend to be extremely supportive of combustion. Dust in grain elevators for example, is not to be exposed to open flame as I under stand correctly. I am not sure why the suspended particulate in CS would behave differently; I would expect it to be a hazard in a fire situation, as well.
All tear gases are considered nerve agents, which are banned for use in combat by international law.
Since I took an NBC course in the Army and even ran a CS familiarization exercise (tent with CS concentration), I would like to know what your reference for this is.
fter Vietnam, CS became popular among other militaries. Saddam Hussein's troops used it during Iraq's war against Iran. A few years later, after American troops routed Hussein's army, the UN Special Commission found that nearly half of Iraq's loaded chemical munitions contained not nerve agents or mustard gas, but CS.
CS is a riot agent- which is only nominally lethal- usually then only accidentally. It makes zero sense to load missiles or chemical artillery shells with CS. Bomblets maybe- but only for niche applications like deterring pursuit of a withdrawing spec ops unit or something. Basically- shell lands, makes a big noxious cloud that makes your eyes water and your nose run, then the wind dissipates it, and at worst you have to hose the place down to get the CS dust to go away. Not that big a deal- more annoying than anything else. Hardly a worthwhile payload for a chemically armed rocket.
I don't know about the Air Force or the Navy- but anyone that has been through the Army or the Marine Corps has had to breath this stuff.
If Iraqi weapons were found filled with CS- I'd have to believe that it was to adulterate whatever agent had been loaded in them, as a misdirection measure.
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