Virginia County secretly removes Confederate flag from official seal

The Daily Press, Hampton Roads, VA ^ | March 2, 2006 | Associated Press

[Rebeleye]

The removal of the Confederate flag from Amherst County's official seal has upset Southern heritage groups, who contend residents weren't told of the change. County officials acknowledge the image was quietly removed in August 2004 to avoid an uproar.

[null and void]

You've been here long enough to know that we expect a more reasoned reply than that.

[Gone GF]

How was it "on the sly" when they made a motion and voted in an open session, a vote that no doubt was recorded in public minutes?

[Wallace T.]

It would have been better for America had slavery been abolished in the late 1700s, before Western expansion and the effects of the cotton gin on agriculture permanently ingrained the institution into Southern life. Jefferson, Madison, and other Founding Fathers refused to acknowledge the contradiction between their libertarian rhetoric and the existence of slavery. Had slavery been abolished, the western South may have been developed by smaller farmers, including European immigrants, as the Midwest was. Capital may have flowed into manufacturing, as it did in the North. As a result, the agriculture vs. industry conflict that led to the tariff wars in the antebellum era would not have divided the regions.

Likewise, had the Bolshevik Revolution failed, as did similar uprisings in Hungary and Germany, tens of millions of human lives would have been spared. Tsarism was an oppressive system, to be sure, but it was benign in comparison with the butchery of Lenin, Stalin, and their henchmen. Moreover, Russian civilization and even the mental state of Russians were decimated by 70 years of oppression almost unparalleled in human history.

[justshutupandtakeit]

Those among the Founders were universal in their belief that Slavery was an evil and worked to reduce its spread. Jefferson was instrumental in that effort in Congress. Only decades later did the leaders of the South reject the Founders views and proclaim it a good for all concerned even the slave. After a few decades of such nonsense the mentality of the South was warped so badly it took the death of the culture to straighten it out.

Tsarism was dead before Lenin took power and there were no forces capable of defeating his followers on hand. Not only were domestic opponents defeated but an international intervention as well. Bolshevism won the field because it was the strongest force there. Would it have won without the intervention of the German army? Don't know.

[brazzaville]

Good morning.
"That's the epitome of socialism."

Since you live in the state that keeps electing Kennedys and kerrys, I would think you would know about something like socialism.

I noticed that the people who get huffy about other people getting huffy about attacks on the Stars and Bars all live north of the Mason Dixon Line. No one seems to be getting over that war but, I think it has more to do with one side telling the other side that they can't have pride in their ancestors than with something that was outlawed a hundred and forty years ago.

Michael Frazier

[4CJ]

NONE of the Founders believed the State could repeal its ratification. Madison blew that fallacy out of the water in his letter to Hamilton during the NY State Ratification Convention.

ROTF!!!! Madison did and signed on the dotted line (the Virginia ratification): 'WE the Delegates of the people of Virginia, duly elected in pursuance of a recommendation from the General Assembly, and now met in Convention, having fully and freely investigated and discussed the proceedings of the Federal Convention, and being prepared as well as the most mature deliberation hath enabled us, to decide thereon, DO in the name and in behalf of the people of Virginia, declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression'.

John Marshall, later Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court, stated in the Virginia convention that delegated powers may be resumed at will.

John Jay, and Alexander Hamilton did in the New York ratification: 'the powers of government may be reassumed by the people whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness'.

Your threat to ignore me is hilarious since you bozos cannot help flaunting your ignorance of history.

You're the one in the clown suit.

[HostileTerritory]

I respect people having pride in their ancestors for their bravery and military service. I also recognize that most people who fought for the Confederacy did not own slaves and were fighting to defend where they lived because that's what people were bound to do. (Although they were not keen on having the slaves freed and living in their midst, an attitude not unusually racist anywhere in the country or the world at the time.)

Because of immigration and migration, your average northerner is much less likely to have a GAR soldier in his family tree and even then very unlikely to know about than your average white southerner and the Confederate Army. Nor were many battles fought here. So we don't tend to take this issue personally and are befuddled when people take it so seriously to the point of hating us in the abstract and blaming us for their past, but whatever, that's how it goes.

What bothers me is when people feel that to defend their ancestors' bravery and courage requires dishonesty about the compromised moral nature of the cause they fought for. I recognize that the north was (and is) plenty racist and many northerners didn't fight to free slaves but to defend the Union or simply to have some adventure. In turn, I recognize that the South seceded over the right of states to preserve slavery, a hateful and soul-crushing system that America is blessed to be liberated from.

Southerners who wish to celebrate their heritage should also recognize and respect the very different feelings the Confederate flag inspires in the many Southerners who are descended from slaves, and consider their region's reputation for respect and consideration when deciding whether to impose this flag on civic institutions that speak for all residents of the state, county, or town, not just the white residents who once were the only residents who counted.

And that's what I think.

[HostileTerritory]

By the way, I always get a laugh when someone flying a California flag makes fun of a freeper for living in the blue northeast.

[JamesP81]

I noticed that the people who get huffy about other people getting huffy about attacks on the Stars and Bars all live north of the Mason Dixon Line. No one seems to be getting over that war but, I think it has more to do with one side telling the other side that they can't have pride in their ancestors than with something that was outlawed a hundred and forty years ago.

Nail on head. Basically if I have to learn to like and respect everyone in this country, that means everyone else gets to like and respect everyone in the South. And sometimes we fly the Stars and Bars. Deal with it.

[brazzaville]

Good morning.
“To many Native Americans, that [American] flag is no different than the Nazi flag or the Confederate flag.”

Shouldn't you be following muawiyah's advice? Your people lost after all.

Sarcasm tags are not needed, I assume.

Michael Frazier

[george wythe]

County officials acknowledge the image was quietly removed

Liberals always try to do their dirty work secretly. Whey they are exposed, they will come with multiple excuses, like the Colorado "geography" teacher.

[JamesP81]

And that's what I think.

I can respect reasoned response given in a reasonable tone. Quite a contrast to justshutupandtakeit.

[HostileTerritory]

These threads usually generate more heat than light and I'm often one of the worst offenders. Every now and then it's good to step back and actually speak like a human being, though.

[justshutupandtakeit]

Madison clearly stated once in the Union always in the Union. Unless a constitutional amendment allows withdrawal or expulsion a state has no power to withdraw. NO state act can supercede the Law of the Land. The states had committed themselves to a perpetual Union prior to the Constitution.

You can't even grasp what you quoted since it is NOT referring to the people of Virginia resuming powers but the people of the UNITED STATES.

It is hilarious that you even highlighted the phrase yet don't understand what you highlighted being so desparate to find some support for the Traitors' treason.

BTW welcome back.

[justshutupandtakeit]

There was NO "conditional ratification" allowed or accepted. That is just another bogus DS delusion.

[brazzaville]

Good morning.
"Other symbols will follow to be replaced by One World symbols."

How long before the Stars and Stripes is deemed to be so offensive that it is removed from all of our logos, as crosses and the Stars and Bars are, and replaced by the blue of the UN?

Michael Frazier

[JamesP81]

I guess I'm a little irritated at the sneaky way this whole thing was done. It stinks of cowardice.

No one is suggesting that slavery was a good thing. Every nation has black marks on its history, and slavery is one borne by the US as well. By the logic of some, we need to quit flying the US flag. After all, Jefferson was a slave-owner himself. Should we stop flying the US flag? Of course not. We look to the Stars and Stripes and think of the good things it represents. Some of us also look to the Stars and Bars and think of the good things that it represented. Justshutupandtakeit comes off as an extreme hypocrite for these reasons. Some other interesting historical tidbits:

Lincoln wasn't the great guy everybody thought he was either. His one and only objective was to preserve the Union. This was a worthy goal, but thinking of him as the quintessential anti-slave crusader isn't the historical Lincoln:

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. --Abraham Lincoln

General Robert E. Lee had this to say about slavery: "There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil."

The issue is not as simple as some would have us believe. The bottom line is that if the South was a fascist, evil state then the Union was too, for it was guilty of the same crimes. Now if God were to abolish and destroy every culture, regardless of its good traits, that did something dopey or stupid in its history, then I submit to you that we would all be screwed.

[brazzaville]

Good morning.
"It was only for the South that the war was about slavery. And for the South that was ALL it was about."

You were doing OK, hostile and ill-tempered but OK.

With that last statement you show your ignorance and your meanness. And some people wonder why it isn't really over.

Michael Frazier

[Dante3]

That likely will happen unless a stop is put to this nonsense (along with a halt to the invasion of this country).

[brazzaville]

Good morning.
"...made a motion and voted in an open session."

I guess I missed that part. I thought they admitted that they passed the resolution on the QT to avoid what is happening here.

While we are talking about it, was there anything interesting in the minutes of your county's last meeting? You know, things that didn't affect your taxes or your utilities but would have pissed you off if you they hadn't avoided public discussion.

Michael Frazier