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Circumcision battle lands parents of eight-year-old in US court
AFP ^ | 18 Feb 2006 | AFP

Posted on 02/18/2006 6:34:25 PM PST by dpa5923

CHICAGO (AFP) - A clash over of their son's circumcision has landed the parents of an eight-year-old Illinois boy in a US court where there is no apparent precedent.

A Cook County judge ordered the mother in the case not to have her son circumcised until the court can hear arguments from the child's father, who opposes the operation, and decide if it is in the boy's best interest.

Jews and Muslims circumcise their sons for religious reasons.

But this case instead involves shifting medical and cultural preferences, which have recently become a matter of debate in the United States.

The mother, 31, is a homemaker from Northbrook, Illinois. She says two doctors recommended the procedure for health reasons.

But her ex-husband, 49, a building manager in Arlington Heights, Illinois, has called the procedure an "unnecessary amputation" that could cause his son physical and emotional harm.

In the 1900s, surgical circumcision, in which the foreskin of the penis is removed usually before a newborn leaves the hospital, was the norm in the United States.

But the percentage of US babies being circumcised has plunged from an estimated 90 percent in 1970 to some 60 percent now, data show.

The American Academy of Pediatrics no longer recommends routine neonatal circumcision but says the decision should be left to the parents. That has added fuel to the fire where until recently there was little debate on the issue at all among the US Christian majority.

Some staunch opponents of the procedure see it as akin to female genital mutilation. They argue that the procedure is medically unnecessary and morally wrong. Still others have launched support groups for those who have been circumcised and would rather not have been; some have even pursued surgical options for restoration.

Legal experts however say that there are no published US opinions to serve as precedents in this case. As such it normally would be determined based on the best interests of the child.

When the divorced parents appeared Friday in Cook County Circuit Court, Judge Jordan Kaplan got the two sides to agree that the child would not be circumcised "until further order of (the) court."

He also also ordered them not to discuss the case with their child.

Tracy Rizzo, an attorney for the mother, said the father scared the child by telling him frightening stories about what might happen if he were circumcised.

The father's lawyers, John D'Arco and Alan Toback, have argued that the couple's divorce agreement provides that the father must be consulted before any non-emergency medical care.

Male circumcision is much more widespread in the United States, Canada, and the Middle East than in Asia, South America, Central America, and most of Europe.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: circumcision; familycourt; nannystate
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To: esoxmagnum
I do know that circumcision is done more often here by the big Mega Churches who usually support gay marriage and abortion

I have to question that one. Churches that support sodomy and abortion generally shrivel up and die fairly quickly. The morally straight refugees flock to either Catholic or Orthodox churches -- or Evangelical Megachurches -- leaving the sodomites and babykillers alone at their desecrated altars.

361 posted on 02/19/2006 9:10:33 PM PST by Rytwyng ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche......"Oh, yeah? Wait 3 days!!!" -- God)
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To: guitarist; sandbar; Ronaldus Magnus
Getting cirucumsised... does seem to be a net plus health-wise

Well... in rare cases of deformity (phimosis), it is a benefit. And if someone is foolish enough to be promiscuous, circumcision would reduce their risks. (How's that for the "safe sex" speech: "Son, if you're gonna fool around, you gotta get clipped!")

However, most of the risks cited in post 7 are reduced to ZERO by monogamy. Even the penile cancer issue, when the research is finally in, will almost certainly be found to be due to HPV -- the same virus family that causes veneral warts and cervical cancer -- and monogamy protects against HPV too.

The bottom line is, if the kid is righteous, he doesn't need circumcision. And if he's not, he's taking his chances, circumcised or not. Interesting that this is true both spiritually and epidemiologically.

362 posted on 02/19/2006 9:21:37 PM PST by Rytwyng ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche......"Oh, yeah? Wait 3 days!!!" -- God)
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To: Rytwyng
I can only speak for my brother, his wife and their friends who are avid Willowcreekers here near Chicago.

They have as much information about the Bible as to be dangerous, and are the sort that give all of Christianity a bad name (the ONLY thing that matters is the Sermon on the Mound to them, all other rules be damned, especially if it infringes on their pot smoking lifestyle).

This church is HUGE they pay Bill Clinton to speak there, they are pro abortion, anti gun, anti Bush, pro Kerry, Pro Clinton, anti Catholic, pro homosexual, anti War, etc. Not just them, thats the doctrine of the church et large it seems.

When our boys born, they were in our face about the clipping because we told our parents we weren't going to do it after consulting with our Catholic Parish.

They went nuts, claimed it was in the Bible. This is the same church that also claims abortion is legal in the Bible because a fetus is not life, but War is illegal, because its killing.

Willowcreek is my ONLY contact with any mega church, and after they started funneling dollars into the dem party, I researched and got more than a taste of what my brother was into.

The clipping was just one tip of the iceberg about their twisted biblical teachings.
363 posted on 02/19/2006 9:32:17 PM PST by esoxmagnum
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To: esoxmagnum
This church is HUGE they pay Bill Clinton to speak there, they are pro abortion, anti gun, anti Bush, pro Kerry, Pro Clinton, anti Catholic, pro homosexual, anti War, etc

I'm shocked. I've never heard of such a thing. If your brother et al are representative, then I predict eventual collapse, a la the Anglicans.

My megachurch is totally opposite on every all of those points. Even the Catholic thing... it's the most Catholic-friendly Protestant church I've ever attended; in fact Jim Caviezel, who lives nearby, was invited as a guest preacher one Sunday.

I should note, my pastor publicly condemned the idea of "closing on Christmas Sunday", an abomination spawned at WillowCreek. He said, "Some churches are closing on Christmas --we're adding extra services on Christmas", followed by the usual call to invite unbelievers to hear the gospel message at the one time of year that most of them are willing to listen.

364 posted on 02/19/2006 9:43:01 PM PST by Rytwyng ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche......"Oh, yeah? Wait 3 days!!!" -- God)
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To: Rytwyng
However, most of the risks cited in post 7 are reduced to ZERO by monogamy.

As I already posted to you in post #153, I am completely in favor of marital fidelity. However, predicting and insuring this future behavior is highly problematic. The child may someday go through a rebellious stage or may simply fail to resist a temptation. Furthermore, even if they are perfectly monogamous their spouse may be raped, scratched, transfused, or otherwise infected and thus pose a risk even in an otherwise monogamous relationship.

Even the penile cancer issue, when the research is finally in, will almost certainly be found to be due to HPV

Unless you have some qualification in this area you can demonstrate, this kind of speculation isn't really a valid argument in a discussion like this.

The bottom line is, if the kid is righteous, he doesn't need circumcision.

Please see above.

And if he's not, he's taking his chances, circumcised or not.

True, but the research I linked shows that circumcision significantly reduces those chances.

365 posted on 02/19/2006 10:02:39 PM PST by Ronaldus Magnus
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To: sandbar
Personally, as a woman, I do not like an uncircumsized one and I don't care what the current trend, I know NOT ONE woman who disagrees with me.

You're in good company. Many men in Africa don't like uncircumcised women.

366 posted on 02/19/2006 10:12:35 PM PST by TDunn
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To: sandbar
it was my understanding that muslims do NOT circumsize as was the difference between Abraham's children being jews. Am I incorrect?

You're incorrect. Muslims do circumcise their sons. In fact about two thirds of the men in the world who were circumcised as children were circumcised because there parents are Muslims.

367 posted on 02/19/2006 10:19:00 PM PST by TDunn
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To: Rytwyng
I wish that were the case, according to my brother, the church continues to grow by leaps and bounds.

They have built their core around knocking us Catholics. We grew up Catholic and they seem to be like the hate-Bush crowd, in that they offer nothing new, just bashing someone else.

My brother even went so far as to tell me that 3/4 of their members are "recovering Catholics", as if being such is akin to being an alcoholic.

As far as the dem ties, a bit of research will show that they were paying upwards of 250k per speaking engagement for Slick Willy. But somehow they retain their tax free status. They also pay Rabi's and the like to come speak, they do have all sorts of people, but not conservatives from what I gather.

The leader of the chruch claims that it is not profit, but he runs a company called the "truth seekers" or something like that, that is being investigated I guess for tax evasions and the like, which pays the church leader millions. According to my brother, they are only going after him because he is a democrat. Very typical lib arguments going on there.

Anyway, after the last election, I haven't spoken to my brother or his wife except for this last Christmas. We invited him to come be with his family, and he said he couldn't cuz he was working at the church. We later read that the church canceled all Christmas mass because they felt no one would show up. So the lies from him continue.

Again, I swear, anything by these animals is justified, and the ONLY thing they know about the Bible is the Sermon on the Mound. Not that they follow it, but they sure love quoting from it to suit their needs.

I just don't see that church folding as it caters to a certain class of people, and they seem to have very deep pockets.

anyways /rant off
368 posted on 02/19/2006 10:23:57 PM PST by esoxmagnum
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To: Rytwyng
BTW, wikpedia (who I don't normally use because it is easily manipulated) has several links at the bottom that critique the church for what it is. Otherwise Google will give you many many links for it.

I didn't know they were Evangelical, I'm not really sure what they are. My brother claims they are 'Multi-denominational" whatever that is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Creek_Community_Church



Hope that helps some, and thanks for the civil conversation.
369 posted on 02/19/2006 10:33:35 PM PST by esoxmagnum
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To: frankjr
Circumcision is already known to greatly reduce a man's risk of penile cancer

Cutting off a boy's foreskin to reduce the risk of cancer of the penis makes about as much sense as cutting off a girl's labia to reduce the risk of cancer of the vulva.

Cutting off a girl's labia greatly reduces a woman's rise of cancer of the vulva. More women in the USA die of cancer of the vulva than men die of cancer of the penis.

370 posted on 02/19/2006 10:36:12 PM PST by TDunn
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To: guitarist
You can do something because the Bible tells you to, or you can wait for the final science to come in and give its verdict. Same result!

If you are Christian, the Book of Acts chapter 15 in the New Testament tells you that circumcision is not a requirement for Christian males.

Every professional medical organization in the world that has a policy on circumcision says there is no medical indication for infant circumcision.

371 posted on 02/19/2006 10:50:08 PM PST by TDunn
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To: Arpege92
I had a friend who was grossed out by a boyfriend who wasn't cut...it didn't last long.

Any woman who turns down a man because he has an intact foreskin is as shallow as a man who turns down a woman because she does not have perfectly shaped breasts.

372 posted on 02/19/2006 11:03:31 PM PST by TDunn
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To: Ronaldus Magnus; Rytwyng
The detection of human papillomavirus deoxyribonucleic acid in intraepithelial, in situ, verrucous and invasive carcinoma of the penis.
373 posted on 02/20/2006 12:35:52 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: dpa5923
But her ex-husband, 49, a building manager in Arlington Heights, Illinois, has called the procedure an "unnecessary amputation" that could cause his son physical and emotional harm.

Understatement of the year.

374 posted on 02/20/2006 12:44:52 AM PST by BJungNan
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To: esoxmagnum
I had a look at the Willow Creek Website. Their statement of faith is contradictory. On the one hand they claim to test all things by Scripture, yet in another place they admit ordaining female "elders" and teachers....

It's been my experience that whenever a church shows even a SMALL deviation like that, better stand back 'cause it'll come crashing down sooner or later.

375 posted on 02/20/2006 1:20:22 AM PST by Rytwyng ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche......"Oh, yeah? Wait 3 days!!!" -- God)
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To: esoxmagnum

>>>yes, removing the foreskin IS akin to female circumcision, both are done for hygiene, both are done by muslims and jews, and both are done for cosmetic reasons.>>>

You are incorrect. The female circumcision is to remove sexual satisfaction by the female, to keep them from becoming sexual creatures, which in the muslim/african world is just awful.


376 posted on 02/20/2006 7:21:50 AM PST by sandbar
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To: PallMal

>>>If sandbar's friends ever fantasize about that "hot Latin lover" or those Euro "Favio" types you see in those romance novels, they'll be highly disappointed and "grossed out" when they discover that those guys are uncircumcized.>>>

Good thing I don't fantasize about crap like that then. Boy, you are out of touch with reality and women if you believe that alot of women like that type. And it's FaBio.


377 posted on 02/20/2006 7:24:12 AM PST by sandbar
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To: TDunn

>>>Personally, as a woman, I do not like an uncircumsized one and I don't care what the current trend, I know NOT ONE woman who disagrees with me.
You're in good company. Many men in Africa don't like uncircumcised women.>>>

I'll remember that on my next trip to Africa. NOT.


378 posted on 02/20/2006 7:25:39 AM PST by sandbar
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To: Arpege92; sandbar; RepubMommy; trashcanbred; Hilltop

One of my sons, at age 6, had to be "re-circumcised". It turns out, "re-circumcision" is very common today due to complications from circumcision. Some kids have to be circumcised a third time, too, when complications arise again.

They put him under general anesthesia. He was in pain and couldn't walk for at least a week. He couldn't even put his legs together as he was lying in bed. So, now I know better, and one of the biggest regrets of my life is saying "OK" to circumcision in the first place.

Btw, the article says: "She says two doctors recommended the procedure for health reasons."

The terms "health" and "medical" are not synonymous. It sounds like the mother found doctors who simply support the idea of circumcision. I spoke with two urologists when looking for surgery for my son, and both told me "off the record" that they don't believe circumcision is necessary and that "off the record" they'd advise against it. But, what they normally do is provide parents with the pro vs. con literature and then stand back and let them make the decision because both told me they see it as a "religious" decision.


379 posted on 02/20/2006 8:49:19 AM PST by Tired of Taxes (That's taxes, not Texas. I have no beef with TX. NJ has the highest property taxes in the nation.)
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To: dpa5923
The "physically and emotional trauma" argument is pure hogwash. Are there millions of men who have to seek counseling because of their circumcisions? I didn't think so.

Circumcision has been practiced for thousands of years, and the overwhelming majority of those boys grew up to be perfectly fine.

Is it necessary? That depends on your religious beliefs. Will it cause permanent emotional and psychological harm to the boy? Nope.

380 posted on 02/20/2006 8:55:02 AM PST by TChris ("Unless you act, you're going to lose your world." - Mark Steyn)
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