Posted on 02/01/2006 3:42:08 PM PST by John Jorsett
Why do American troops prefer the century old .45 caliber pistol to lighter 9mm models. It’s all about “stopping power.” As far back as 1900, during the fighting against Moslem rebels in the Philippines, there had been complaints of enemy fighters getting shot and continuing to attack. From this experience, the then standard army pistol, a .38 caliber (9.65mm) weapon, was replaced by a .45 caliber (11.4mm) one. In the 1980s, the .45 was in turn replaced by a 9mm pistol. There were a lot of complaints about that, but 90 years of experience demonstrated that you should not depend on a pistol in the heat of combat. But that was largely European experience, in major wars. In these conditions, pistols were rarely used in desperate battles. The fighting in Iraq reminded everyone that, especially in urban combat, a pistol was still an essential weapon. Going into buildings, troops would often prefer to have one or two guys holding pistols, as these could get into action faster if you were in cramped and crowded conditions. At close range, you didn’t want someone with a gun, or a knife, to require a second shot. And at ranges measured in a few feet, you couldn’t miss. If the enemy was amped up, you wanted to take him down with one shot, because there might not be time for a second. Many police SWAT teams have stayed with the .45 for the same reason.
The M1911 was better at stopping people, and that was mainly due to the size of the bullet. Technically, the “hitting power” of a bullet is determined by the bullet weight and velocity, and is measured in joules. The widely used 9mm Parabellum generated 583 joules, the Russian 7.62mm Tokarev (mainly used to execute cowardly soldiers, POWs or uncooperative civilians) produced 499 joules, while the .45 (11.4mm) only came up with 450 joules. But there's a major problem in just using joules, and that is how much of that energy is actually applied to the person being hit. A smaller, faster bullet has a tendency to just go through someone. This does damage, often fatal damage, but if often does not slow down a highly energized soldier. A larger bullet, especially a blunt one, will be more effective at "stopping" someone. Thus the popularity of the .45 caliber pistol round. Although it has less energy than the 9mm round (450 joules compared to 583), those who have used both insist that the .45 is far more effective than the smaller and faster 9mm. Part of this has to do with the fact that the .45 (11.4mm) bullet hits with a 60 percent larger (as seen head on) area, thus it applied more of that energy to the target. This explains the greater likelihood of the .45 caliber bullet "knocking down" whoever it hits. The same physics applies to rifle bullets (although they tend to have pointy tips, unlike the blunter ones for pistol pullets.) A 7.62mm bullet is 88 percent larger (head on) than a 5.56mm one.
Even before the Department of Defense decided to switch back to the .45, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the U.S. Marine Corps went and got .45 caliber pistols for use as an “alternative” to the standard 9mm M9. SOCOM was never happy with the 9mm's pistol's stopping power, even in the very limited scenarios, such as terrorist hostage rescue, where they can legally use 9mm hollow-point ammunition for increased effectiveness. SOCOM went out and developed the HK Mark23 Mod 0 SOCOM "offensive" handgun weapons system. This weapon, based on a popular H&K design, is 1.53 inches wide, 5.9 inches high and 9.65 inches long. It weighs 2.42 pounds empty and uses ten or twelve round magazines. The original M1911 is 8.25 inches long, 5.25 inches high, 1.5 inches wide and weighs 2.44 pounds empty (add .4 pounds for a loaded, seven round, magazine). Some 2.7 million M1911s have been manufactured so far, 1.9 million of them during World War II. Some 650,000 of the new U.S. .45 caliber pistols are expected to be manufactured initially.
The U.S. Marine Corps have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But this supply is running out, and the marines have been eager to see the 9mm M9 pistol replaced with a new .45 caliber model. Some marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.
The SOCOM Mk 23 may not be a prime candidate for the new standard pistol. That’s because the Mk 23 is a large weapon. A new “standard .45” will be used by a wide variety of troops, including women (who have smaller hands.) It is possible to make smaller .45s. One of the smallest currently available is the Glock Model 37. This .45 caliber pistol is 7.32 inches long, 5.51 inches high and 1.18 inches wide. It’s 1.63 pounds empty, and 2.22 pounds with a ten round magazine. Glock began making .45 caliber pistols in the early 1990s, and has steadily improved that design. There are smaller .45s than these Glocks, but none that are as sturdy and reliable. So it is possible to get a smaller .45 design that will be as robust as the original M1911.
Well, when I worked the streets as a cop, my philoshy was always head shots. Whenever I got a new partner, at the end of the shift we'd go to the range and shoot for beers.
During the silouete (?) phase, we'd have 35 secondes to get off ten rounds out of a wheel gun. I'd average 29 seconds and all in the head.
Using both hands making a fist and putting them together is the size of the head on that target. Cheap insurance to stay alive if you can hit them in the head on the first round.
I have a .40 (glock) and it kicks like a mule.
Went shooting w/ a friend and his .45 was smooth as silk.
SMACK!!! (Hitting forehead w/ palm) shoulda bought a .45!
10 posted on 02/01/2006 4:51:55 PM MST by Scribbz
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I shoot both a G23 and a G27 ; I find they recoil like a 9mm.
I shoot 180g JHP with little or no recoil.
Now my G30 .45 ACP shooting 230g JHP has more recoil but is very manageable.
.
Do you shoot with one hand or two hands?
If you shoot with two hands do you use a isosceles or point shoot?
Or do you shoot short or extended weaver grip?
Do you squeeze the trigger?
Perhaps taking an NRA basic pistol course from a Certified Instructor
would help you control the handgun.
Those of us who are "Niners" just prefer shooting the bad guy multiple times!
Bookmark.
OUCH!!!!!!
Its a damn shame that US soldiers carry a weapon not even made in the USA. Its a Beretta if I'm not mistaken.
If (a big if) I were POTUS I'd order every Army and Marine ground pounder to carry a .45 ACP that was Made in the USA with ammo Made in the USA. Mandatory range practice at least twice a week, shooting at least 5 clips on the 7 yard range.
The Euro's can jump in a lake. We don't want to follow what the Euro's do, never. We're Americans and we can do anything better than a European can do.
Beverly Hills Cop 3 gun.
Who's arguing?
:^)
Where's her eye and ear and *cough* protection?
The whole idea behind 5.56 was that the soldier could carry more ammo. In Nam I have read that there was something like 5 million rounds expended for every enemy confirmed KIA. Seems way high to me but I witnessed one fire fight where a company of Rangers expended well over 10,000 rounds and could not find any bodies (Charlie used to drag them off). In this case there wasn't even any blood trails.
I was hunting deer outside Winner, South Dakota last fall and popped a doe at well over 300 yards with my Sako 7mm Rem Mag. The wind was stronger than my estimate and I only hit her in the back of the left shoulder from the back. She limped off and I found her later behind a hay roll. The bullet had lodged under the shoulder blade. Perfectly expanded and stuck in the bone. My bad poor shot. But venison in the freezer.
Many guys in WW2 and Korea were in love with the 1911. My Uncle managed to sneak one back. It is a terrible piece of work. Standard mil issue and it still shoots very good for a 45. Amazing stuff.
My favorite. Replaced my G21 in that category.
I would assume that isn't a working silencer? Quite a bit of legal hoops to jump thru for a real one...
Shooting from a static position is a waste of time, IMHO. You always train like you fight. The best training scenarios with a 45 would be inside the live fire shoot houses such as found in the better shooting schools like Thunder Ranch or GunSite.
114: right on!
"From this experience, the then standard army pistol, a .38 caliber (9.65mm) weapon, was replaced by a .45 caliber (11.4mm) one.
Who can tell us what the big boo-boo is in that sentence?
Not really. You pay a $200 tax, get a letter of recommendation from a Chief of Police and submit to a BATF (Bury All Thy Firearms) background check. Then you just buy the device itself. Same goes for a ClassIII full auto. Same fees, except the cost of the weapon will range much higher...maybe in excess of $3,000. Then the cost of the ammo is big $$$ since you might be going thru 9mm at the rate of about 30 rds ever two seconds.....
Are you tryin' to run up the deficit.
Our troops would do just fine with a "loose as a goose" grey steel .45 or if they wanted to pay for their own sidearm, let em' go with whatever trips their trigger, as long as its .45 caliber.
My $500 Colt .45 shoots true and straight and its very reliable. Surely it can once again be massed produced.
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