Posted on 02/01/2006 3:42:08 PM PST by John Jorsett
Why do American troops prefer the century old .45 caliber pistol to lighter 9mm models. It’s all about “stopping power.” As far back as 1900, during the fighting against Moslem rebels in the Philippines, there had been complaints of enemy fighters getting shot and continuing to attack. From this experience, the then standard army pistol, a .38 caliber (9.65mm) weapon, was replaced by a .45 caliber (11.4mm) one. In the 1980s, the .45 was in turn replaced by a 9mm pistol. There were a lot of complaints about that, but 90 years of experience demonstrated that you should not depend on a pistol in the heat of combat. But that was largely European experience, in major wars. In these conditions, pistols were rarely used in desperate battles. The fighting in Iraq reminded everyone that, especially in urban combat, a pistol was still an essential weapon. Going into buildings, troops would often prefer to have one or two guys holding pistols, as these could get into action faster if you were in cramped and crowded conditions. At close range, you didn’t want someone with a gun, or a knife, to require a second shot. And at ranges measured in a few feet, you couldn’t miss. If the enemy was amped up, you wanted to take him down with one shot, because there might not be time for a second. Many police SWAT teams have stayed with the .45 for the same reason.
The M1911 was better at stopping people, and that was mainly due to the size of the bullet. Technically, the “hitting power” of a bullet is determined by the bullet weight and velocity, and is measured in joules. The widely used 9mm Parabellum generated 583 joules, the Russian 7.62mm Tokarev (mainly used to execute cowardly soldiers, POWs or uncooperative civilians) produced 499 joules, while the .45 (11.4mm) only came up with 450 joules. But there's a major problem in just using joules, and that is how much of that energy is actually applied to the person being hit. A smaller, faster bullet has a tendency to just go through someone. This does damage, often fatal damage, but if often does not slow down a highly energized soldier. A larger bullet, especially a blunt one, will be more effective at "stopping" someone. Thus the popularity of the .45 caliber pistol round. Although it has less energy than the 9mm round (450 joules compared to 583), those who have used both insist that the .45 is far more effective than the smaller and faster 9mm. Part of this has to do with the fact that the .45 (11.4mm) bullet hits with a 60 percent larger (as seen head on) area, thus it applied more of that energy to the target. This explains the greater likelihood of the .45 caliber bullet "knocking down" whoever it hits. The same physics applies to rifle bullets (although they tend to have pointy tips, unlike the blunter ones for pistol pullets.) A 7.62mm bullet is 88 percent larger (head on) than a 5.56mm one.
Even before the Department of Defense decided to switch back to the .45, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the U.S. Marine Corps went and got .45 caliber pistols for use as an “alternative” to the standard 9mm M9. SOCOM was never happy with the 9mm's pistol's stopping power, even in the very limited scenarios, such as terrorist hostage rescue, where they can legally use 9mm hollow-point ammunition for increased effectiveness. SOCOM went out and developed the HK Mark23 Mod 0 SOCOM "offensive" handgun weapons system. This weapon, based on a popular H&K design, is 1.53 inches wide, 5.9 inches high and 9.65 inches long. It weighs 2.42 pounds empty and uses ten or twelve round magazines. The original M1911 is 8.25 inches long, 5.25 inches high, 1.5 inches wide and weighs 2.44 pounds empty (add .4 pounds for a loaded, seven round, magazine). Some 2.7 million M1911s have been manufactured so far, 1.9 million of them during World War II. Some 650,000 of the new U.S. .45 caliber pistols are expected to be manufactured initially.
The U.S. Marine Corps have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But this supply is running out, and the marines have been eager to see the 9mm M9 pistol replaced with a new .45 caliber model. Some marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.
The SOCOM Mk 23 may not be a prime candidate for the new standard pistol. That’s because the Mk 23 is a large weapon. A new “standard .45” will be used by a wide variety of troops, including women (who have smaller hands.) It is possible to make smaller .45s. One of the smallest currently available is the Glock Model 37. This .45 caliber pistol is 7.32 inches long, 5.51 inches high and 1.18 inches wide. It’s 1.63 pounds empty, and 2.22 pounds with a ten round magazine. Glock began making .45 caliber pistols in the early 1990s, and has steadily improved that design. There are smaller .45s than these Glocks, but none that are as sturdy and reliable. So it is possible to get a smaller .45 design that will be as robust as the original M1911.
LOL!
Is it the M23? That has a rep for some barrel whip. But the real question is: How are you shooting when you make this judgment on recoil? IOW, Are you shooting at static targets on a range....ie "target shooting?" If so, try a course of fire with an IDPA club. IDPA Like the immortal words of the Sundance kid as played by Robert Redford: Can I move? I'm better when I move. Shooting in a simulated combat (as close as is safely possible) situation will tend to take your mind off recoil as you are concentrating on solving the tactical problem. You'll have to draw from concealed, take cover, reload in a tactical manner, shoot on the move and give voice commands appropriate to the scenario. It REALLY makes a difference.
I have the lightweight Commander . . . it does have a little more recoil than the full size 1911A1, but it's perfectly controllable and doesn't affect sights-on-target.
Now my .455 Webley -- THERE's one that kicks like a mule!
OK! I'm saving that one! LOL!
Dad took a long shot at the limit of practical range and it still knocked the guy off his feet. My friend said the only direction any ChiCom went when hit by the .45 was DOWN.
"Big bullets let in a lot of air and let out a lot of blood."
-Elmer Keith
The Desert Eagle: the first crew-served semi-automatic handgun.
I love that thing!
It even has a microwave oven!!!
Hahaha!!!
Beverly Hills Cop 3, right??
Well done. I found that the Claymore was the weapon of choice in such circumstances, but that was just me.
Not only did John Moses Browning design the incomparable M1911, but also the BAR - arguably the finest Squad Automatic Weapon ever designed - and the M1935 "Hi-Power", the first hi-capacity ".380 magnum" handgun ever AND the one that feels better in the hand than most other pistols.
Had he been Catholic instead of Mormon, I'd put him in for sainthood! Heck, the Catholic Church should make an exception for his case.
That would be true in open terrain, but in the cramped hallways of an Iraqi residence the M4 is a little bit too long to bring to bear quickly. That's one reason for the sudden interest in the 45.
I read an account of the TORA BORA campaign of two SpecOps guys clearing a cave complex from one of many directions. This team took the very cramped area and others were handling the other approaches. They rounded a hairpin in the tunnel and it opened out to a larger cavern, lit by a lamp and showing three "tango's" studying a map. One seated, two standing. Ak's were either slung or leaning against an unoccupied chair. The operators get within say thirty feet in the gloom outside the lamp glow before they're detected. All hell breaks loose. One operator has a M9 Beretta and the other an H&K MK21. The guy seated has the closest grab to a weapon, he catches rounds from both operators and slumps over. The guy on the right is taken by the H&K. One shot he goes down. This operator automatically swings his weapon to back up his buddy. THAT tango is still on his feet, the Beretta is still speaking and the H&K has time to join that conversation. That tango had taken three hits by the time the H&K got into the action and he was still in the fight.
I dunno if these were Delta, Rangers, SEALs or what. Because the presence of two different types of weapons and calibers seems to suggest either a "personal weapon of choice" in contravention of the regulations or a loose unit TO&E. That would suggest the D-Boys to me.
The point is, I learned at the Infantry Officer Basic Course that if you have to transition to a sidearm under most circumstances, indeed you did something very wrong! However, there are times when a handgun is the best possible solution. Sometimes you can't just toss in a grenade. Sometimes you've got to round that tight corner and use a handgun to best advantage. If I'm slicing the pie around a corner, I'm wanting a 45 and not a 9mm if I can help it.
bookmk ping
Remember,
Two to the chest,
one to the head,
makes sure they're,
really dead.
Didn't see any pings to you guys. Mid-week gun pr0n.
gun porn thread ,
... I'm thinking about marketing adjustable racks for #50
... prototype made already , [ popsicle sticks ]
Ed Brown
A very good gun if you want to hit what you are aiming for.
Which, at the end of the day, is the most important aspect of shooting.
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