Posted on 01/19/2006 1:33:32 PM PST by peyton randolph
PARIS (Reuters) - The Roman Catholic Church has restated its support for evolution with an article praising a U.S. court decision that rejects the "intelligent design" theory as non-scientific.
The Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano said that teaching intelligent design -- which argues that life is so complex that it needed a supernatural creator -- alongside Darwin's theory of evolution would only cause confusion...
A court in the state of Pennsylvania last month barred a school from teaching intelligent design (ID), a blow to Christian conservatives who want it to be taught in biology classes along with the Darwinism they oppose.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
Go away Fester. You're beneath me.
GOOD DAY!
You would have been better off to take the advice and practice of your cheerleaders to heart and never attempted to refute intelligent design as a viable explanation for organized matter, and as a viable alternative to evolutionist notions. The case for intelligent design is not only logical but also legal anywhere in this country a person cares to espouse or teach it.
So then, it is your understanding of something that causes it to change from "religious" to "non-religious" status. I see.
Despite there being no evidence of that either, God yet allows this universe to function.
That's a MORON of the OXY type!!!
Scientific propositions are tested by the inverse of this test for faith. And the two, proceeding as they must in polar opposite directions, cannot meet in the middle.
Heck of an assertion here. Too bad it's wrong.
The vast majority of ID supporters would immediately call these people "kooks."
Well, speaking for me, I'd call them atheists; for they would NEVER claim that GOD did it.
If I were asked to read his mind (and I wasn't) then I'd say Paul gets dissed because of the very same reason as
when he was alive on earth:
those who think you need to follow the LAW!!!!
NIV Acts 13:47-51
47. For this is what the Lord has commanded us: "`I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' "
48. When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
49. The word of the Lord spread through the whole region.
50. But the Jews incited the God-fearing women of high standing and the leading men of the city. They stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region.
51. So they shook the dust from their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium.
NIV Acts 15:1-2
1. Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved."
2. This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
NIV Acts 16:19-22
19. When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities.
20. They brought them before the magistrates and said, "These men are Jews, and are throwing our city into an uproar
21. by advocating customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice."
22. The crowd joined in the attack against Paul and Silas, and the magistrates ordered them to be stripped and beaten. .
.
35. When it was daylight, the magistrates sent their officers to the jailer with the order: "Release those men."
36. The jailer told Paul, "The magistrates have ordered that you and Silas be released. Now you can leave. Go in peace."
37. But Paul said to the officers: "They beat us publicly without a trial, even though we are Roman citizens, and threw us into prison. And now do they want to get rid of us quietly? No! Let them come themselves and escort us out."
NIV Acts 17:4-8
4. Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women.
5. But the Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason's house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd.
6. But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other brothers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,
7. and Jason has welcomed them into his house. They are all defying Caesar's decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus."
8. When they heard this, the crowd and the city officials were thrown into turmoil.
NIV Acts 18:12-16
12. While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews made a united attack on Paul and brought him into court.
13. "This man," they charged, "is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law."
14. Just as Paul was about to speak, Gallio said to the Jews, "If you Jews were making a complaint about some misdemeanor or serious crime, it would be reasonable for me to listen to you.
15. But since it involves questions about words and names and your own law--settle the matter yourselves. I will not be a judge of such things."
16. So he had them ejected from the court. 17. Then they all turned on Sosthenes the synagogue ruler and beat him in front of the court. But Gallio showed no concern whatever.
NIV Acts 18:28
For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.
NIV Acts 19:8-9
8. Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God.
9. But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.
NIV Acts 20:19
I served the Lord with great humility and with tears, although I was severely tested by the plots of the Jews.
NIV Acts 21:27-32
27. When the seven days were nearly over, some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul at the temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him,
28. shouting, "Men of Israel, help us! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against our people and our law and this place. And besides, he has brought Greeks into the temple area and defiled this holy place."
29. (They had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with Paul and assumed that Paul had brought him into the temple area.)
30. The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut.
31. While they were trying to kill him, news reached the commander of the Roman troops that the whole city of Jerusalem was in an uproar.
32. He at once took some officers and soldiers and ran down to the crowd. When the rioters saw the commander and his soldiers, they stopped beating Paul.
NIV Acts 22:19-25
19. "`Lord,' I replied, `these men know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you.
20. And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.'
21. "Then the Lord said to me, `Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.'"
22. The crowd listened to Paul until he said this. Then they raised their voices and shouted, "Rid the earth of him! He's not fit to live!"
23. As they were shouting and throwing off their cloaks and flinging dust into the air,
24. the commander ordered Paul to be taken into the barracks. He directed that he be flogged and questioned in order to find out why the people were shouting at him like this.
25. As they stretched him out to flog him, Paul said to the centurion standing there, "Is it legal for you to flog a Roman citizen who hasn't even been found guilty?"
NIV Acts 23:12-15
12. The next morning the Jews formed a conspiracy and bound themselves with an oath not to eat or drink until they had killed Paul.
13. More than forty men were involved in this plot.
14. They went to the chief priests and elders and said, "We have taken a solemn oath not to eat anything until we have killed Paul.
15. Now then, you and the Sanhedrin petition the commander to bring him before you on the pretext of wanting more accurate information about his case. We are ready to kill him before he gets here."
NIV Acts 24:5-9
5. "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect
6. and even tried to desecrate the temple; so we seized him.
8. By examining him yourself you will be able to learn the truth about all these charges we are bringing against him."
9. The Jews joined in the accusation, asserting that these things were true.
It's still true TODAY!!!
NIV Acts 24:8
By examining him yourself you will be able to learn the truth about all these charges we are bringing against him."
The stuff in the back of the 'fridge, or the things under the bed.
In what way?
Like THIS?? (NIV references at 1 Peter 1:17-21; 1 Cor. 2:7; 2 Timothy 1:8-10 and Titus 1:1-4)
Actually better like this ----
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,...
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:...
2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:...
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
"Just how did these ignurt goat-herders have such a concept as 'before time' anyway???"
They each had direct revelation from the Creator of the entire universe!
"Does it really matter what any Church, Pastor, Priest or Pope says??? It's best to know the Word. Then when you hear your pastor, priest, or pope you can say amen, and know what is truth. If your pastor, priest , or pope doesn't speak truth get rid of him or leave and go where truth is preached.
"As far as I can tell we still have the Bible and it is Gods' word.
"To the Christian: John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
Correct. Sanctified through the the truth, and it is God's Word that is truth.
There is NO sanctification through any particular church or denomination of them, and NO sanctification through any sinner, including those of us who are called by our Redeemer to be preachers of the Gospel of Grace. Any true Gospel preacher will tell you to make the written Final Authority of God, the Bible, the judge OVER the preacher, priest, bishop, pope, other.
You're mistaking Catholics for Biblical Fundamentalists.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
How to read the account of the fallThat pushes the genetic bottleneck back to maybe half a million years.390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265
III. ORIGINAL SIN
Freedom put to the test
396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.
Man's first sin
397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.
398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God".279
399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281
400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay".284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground",285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286
401 After that first sin, the world is virtually inundated by sin There is Cain's murder of his brother Abel and the universal corruption which follows in the wake of sin. Likewise, sin frequently manifests itself in the history of Israel, especially as infidelity to the God of the Covenant and as transgression of the Law of Moses. And even after Christ's atonement, sin raises its head in countless ways among Christians.287 Scripture and the Church's Tradition continually recall the presence and universality of sin in man's history:
What Revelation makes known to us is confirmed by our own experience. For when man looks into his own heart he finds that he is drawn towards what is wrong and sunk in many evils which cannot come from his good creator. Often refusing to acknowledge God as his source, man has also upset the relationship which should link him to his last end, and at the same time he has broken the right order that should reign within himself as well as between himself and other men and all creatures.288The consequences of Adam's sin for humanity402 All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290
403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul".291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292
404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.
405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529)296 and at the Council of Trent (1546).297
A hard battle. . .
407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man's situation and activity in the world. By our first parents' sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails "captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil".298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals.
408 The consequences of original sin and of all men's personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John's expression, "the sin of the world".300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men's sins.301
409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"302 makes man's life a battle:
The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.303
Maybe.
At that stage, were we human?
I don't know, were we? There doesn't seem to be any evidence of evolution in the fossil record, as Darwin predicted there would be. The fossil record should demonstrate gradual change as a rule, yet it demonstrates species passing into and out of existence unchanged, as a rule.
Could Homo erectus have had a chat with a snake, or with Adam?
Is Homo erectus a different species than man? If so, how is this proof of evolution, rather than stasis? Isn't this just another ambiguous piece of fossil evidence, like Archaeopteryx?
And is it likely a viable species could be derived from two individuals?
Why wouldn't it be?
Scientific propositions are tested by the inverse of this test for faith. --- Oh, THIS WAY....
And the two, proceeding as they must in polar opposite directions, cannot meet in the middle.--- and finally, THIS WAY!
I don't know, were we? There doesn't seem to be any evidence of evolution in the fossil record, as Darwin predicted there would be.
Let me quote this to you from memory. A lie is always sinful and nothing can excuse it.
You've been on these threads enough to know what you posted has been rebutted repeatedly.
Either you don't understand that Catholics aren't biblical Fundamentalists, or you chose to argue that position for some reason.
You've been on these threads enough to know what you posted has been rebutted repeatedly.
I can see how someone could believe that if if he had an a priori commitment to materialism and or Darwinism. I don't, so I see the supposed evidence as ambiguous, at best.
You misrepresent my arguments. They may be summarized as follows: One may reasonably infer intelligent design from the presence of organized matter. Science may take place and be taught both logically and legally while using as a given the assumption that God created the heavens and the earth and still sustains them. Science need not prove the existence of God to work under this assumption any more than it needs to prove God is beyond its purview.
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