Why Airbus Can't Glide on 2005. (Airwars)

Business Week Online ^ | January 17, 2006 | Carol Matlack

[lowbuck]

Airbus has done it again. On Jan. 17, the European planemaker reported that it booked 1,055 net aircraft orders in 2005, just ahead of the 1,002 logged by Boeing in a record-breaking sales year for both companies.

[lowbuck]

OK, the dogfight coninues. . . here is some reasoned thought about the "numbers".

For Boeing I think a very good year! I hear room-ers that they have another "hit" waiting in the wings (hee hee, could not help but have some fun. . . wings, get it?)

Any FReepers out there who can speculate on this?

[Joe Boucher]

Just about equal orders.
Difference is that airbus is subsidized heavily by the european union.
Boeing is a real company not a govt. employment scheme.
Also Boeing isn't worked by a bunch of damn french.

[RoadTest]

AMEN!!!!!!!

[PaxBritannica]

If anything, Boeing receives more subsidies from the Bush government than Airbus does from the EU:

http://www.cei.org/gencon/019,04974.cfm

You must also remember that Airbus is largely American controlled - the major partner is Airbus Industries is European Aeronautic, Defense & Space Co whose controlling shareholders are DaimlerChrysler!

These days, you just don't know who owns who!

[globalheater]

Be very careful what you say here - Boeing is a symbol of national pride and glory - and certainly a free market :)

[jas3]

Boeing is subsidized heavily by the US government too.

For example, how much is the space shuttle program worth to Boeing versus worth to the nation? The program is a complete waste of money and little more than a jobs program and poorly disguised subsidy that has crippled the US space program for 20 years.

Also, the Airbus 330s are nice planes, even if the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys (CESM) did work on them.

That being said, as of 2005, Boeing now builds much better planes than Airbus, and the market is responding accordingly.

jas3

p.s. ...just don't think that Boeing isn't subsidized...it is.

[PaxBritannica]

LOL - and a very good company they are too, apparently on their best aircraft they use Rolls-Royce engines, just like that other symbol of American national pride and glory did - the P51 Mustang! ;-)

[Red6]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1557640/posts?page=61#61

[Red6]

Boeing is a "PRIVATE" business. Airbus is not. What is there to not understand?

The big three Chrysler Ford and GM are American brands. Daimler bought out Chrysler. So what? Pride issues? No.

The US has no Pride issue with Airbus. It's an issue of subsidies, closed markets by state run airlines who WILL buy whatever Airbus builds. It's an issue of fair trade, not pride.

Red6

[PaxBritannica]

Nothing in that post changes my assertion that both companies are subsidised by governments that must ensure they succeed. Only the method of subsidy differs - a point strongly supported by that most right-wing of Washington think-tanks as I quoted them.

http://www.cei.org/pages/about.cfm

[PaxBritannica]

I can buy shares in either - DaimlerChrysler are the controlling stockholder in EADS and thus in Airbus, thus it is clearly a publicly quoted business, just like Boeing.

There are no closed markets and no state airlines who must buy Airbus. British Airways is a good example - if you are to be believed, as Britain is a major partner in Airbus, they must buy Airbus aircraft, yet when you examine their fleet you will see that of 293 aircraft, 168 are Boeing and 66 are Airbus.

Irrespective of your view on subsidies as a believer in market economics a duopoly of Airbus and Boeing, is much better for the consumer than the old monopoly of just Boeing.

[Red6]

"LOL - and a very good company they are too, apparently on their best aircraft they use Rolls-Royce engines, just like that other symbol of American national pride and glory did - the P51 Mustang! ;-)"

Ever see the crash stats?

Red6

[Red6]

Bullshit.

Why don't you look at WHO OWNS the MAJORITY of the shares genius!

I can by stock in the Frankfurt airport too. But the state of Hessen, federal government and city of Frankfurt own a combined SEVENTY PERCENT. Who calls the shot's - you? I don't think so.

Red6

[Red6]

"Airbus aircraft, yet when you examine their fleet you will see that of 293 aircraft, 168 are Boeing and 66 are Airbus."

How old are you?

When you examine the fleet you'll notice that Airbus didn't build anything equivalent to a 747 years ago. Airbus started out small and went big. The state run airlines had no option if they wanted to stay in business but to buy Boeing or Lockheed products years ago. But once Airbus builds ANYTHING. Once Airbus builds an equivalent for a 737, the state run airlines buy it (A300). Once Airbus builds a 747 equivalent (A380) the state run airlines buy it. Once Airbus builds a 787 equivalent - you take a guess at who WILL buy it?

They fly Boeing/Lockheed products because years ago those companies where building products for market niches that Airbus didn't cover.

Red6

[globalheater]

as I said I will not discuss it.

[Red6]

http://www.airdisaster.com/statistics/

Want more stats or different sources?

And realize this - Many of these Boeing products have been around a lot longer than the Airbus products, are flown in third world places in part by shady fly by night operations. There are STILL DC-3's being operated in Latin America! Yet Boeing has hands down the better stats as far as crashes are concerned.

Or am I wrong? :)

Red6

[globalheater]

lol ... i just knew it would happen :)

see Boeing builds beautiful airplanes... seriously I admire the achievemets of their engineers and most of all their strategic instincts to counter the A380 with the worldliner.

Magnificent move from a company that wasn't moving much in the 90s. Yup - you are correct, the market pressures turn out the best of every company or else...

Certainly the DC 3 is a sturdy little bird as you very correctly stated, but sad to say it's not a Boeing as the DC indicates.

[MHalblaub]

"Once Airbus builds an equivalent for a 737, the state run airlines buy it (A300)."

What is your definition of a state run airline?

According to Wikipedia:
"In December 2004 the French state sold 18.4% of its equity stake in the Air France-KLM Group, reducing its stake to just under 20%."
"...since 1997 Lufhansa is completely private owned."

The fleet of Air France:
* 11 Airbus A318-100
* 44 Airbus A319-100
* 12 Airbus A320-100
* 55 Airbus A320-200
* 5 Airbus A321-100
* 8 Airbus A321-200
* 16 Airbus A330-200
* 20 Airbus A340-300
* 13 Boeing 737-500
* 6 Boeing 747-200
* 2 Boeing 747-300
* 16 Boeing 747-400
* 9 Boeing 747-200F
* 4 Boeing 747-400ERF
* 25 Boeing 777-200
* 11 Boeing 777-300

Orders of Air France:
* 4 Boeing 777-300ER
* 18 Boeing 777-200ERs
* 10 Airbus A380
* 3 conversions Boeing 747-400 to Boeing 747-400SF
* 5 Boeing 777-200F

The fleet of Lufthansa:
* 18 Avro RJ85
* 20 CRJ-700
* 40 CRJ-100/200
* 15 Airbus A319-100
* 36 Airbus A320-200
* 26 Airbus A321-100/200
* 2 Airbus A330-200 (to leave fleet by October 2006)
* 12 Airbus A330-300
* 13 Airbus A300-600
* 29 Airbus A340-300
* 10 Airbus A340-600
* 19 MD-11F (Lufthansa Cargo only)
* 33 Boeing 737-300
* 29 Boeing 737-500
* 29 Boeing 747-400 (+1 B747 stored)
* 1 Junkers Ju 52
* 1 Messerschmitt Me 108
* 1 Dornier Do 27

Orders of Lufthansa:
* 15 Airbus A380-800
* 7 Airbus A340-600


Which airline bought 2005 a Boeing 747 for passenger transportation?

[Red6]

1. Who bought the Douglas Corporation in 1997?
2. You're being funny right? I was talking in generalities and even IF I WERE NOT I'd still be right.

Red6

[Red6]

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm?content=displaystandardreport.cfm&RequestTimeout=20000&optReportType=CurYrDelv&pageid=m15520

In 2005- 13 Boeing 747's were delivered. What statement were you trying to make? lol

BTW- more will be delivered in 2006 and yes there are newer versions out offered for sale that are more efficient, more modern and better tailored for new markets. Again, what were you trying to say? I'm confused. lol

Red6