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Why Are Darwinists So Afraid of Intelligent Design?
Human Events ^ | Jan 17, 2006 | Barney Brenner

Posted on 01/16/2006 8:32:58 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe

Darwinists must be an endangered species. How else to explain their 80-year need for court protection to ensure their survival?

In 1925, an ACLU-driven defense team in the Scopes-Monkey Trial wanted a court to declare that laws forbidding the teaching of evolution were unconstitutional. In recent weeks, in a courtroom in Dover, Pa., the same organization applauded a judge’s ruling that the teaching of ideas contrary to evolution, in this case Intelligent Design, were unconstitutional.

The same ACLU that once advocated for free and open discussion in schools is working to see it stifled today.

Its website boasts, “Intelligent Design is a religious view, not a scientific theory, according to U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III in his historic decision in Kitzmiller v. Dover. The decision is a victory not only for the ACLU, who led the legal challenge, but for all who believe it is inappropriate, and unconstitutional, to advance a particular religious belief at the expense of our children's education.”

Science involves observing nature and producing hypotheses which explain the data -- and of discrediting theories which don’t fit new observations. Having judges decide what constitutes science is as nonsensical as scientists issuing judicial decisions.

And the irreligious left, perpetually misusing the First Amendment, can’t identify which religion is being established. Is it that of the Jehovah’s Witnesses or of Catholicism? Perhaps Mormonism or Orthodox Judaism? Among many others, these disparate faiths all claim as canon the book of Genesis, where the religious version of creation is found.

But ironically, while no particular religion is being promoted by the teaching of Intelligent Design, there’s a belief system, which has established “churches” in several states, that is being favored by ACLU-- and court-imposed censorship: atheism, whose worldview promotes moral relativism and secular humanism.

The left maintains that Intelligent Design is merely creationism -- a literal reading of the Bible’s account of creation -- camouflaged in scientific language. But even a casual perusal of ID demonstrates there is no dependence on Genesis for any of its arguments, nor does it teach any biblical doctrine. It merely demands an examination of the evidence -- or lack thereof -- that uncountable species arose from primordial soup, or that they evolved over time from one to another.

To support Darwin’s theory, the earth should be teeming with myriad transitional specimens, but they are noteworthy, despite incessant extrapolation, only by their absence.

Other modern observations are daunting for Darwinists: digital information -- universally a mark of design -- in the genetic code and irreducibly complex structures such as miniature molecular machines within the cell which Darwin could hardly begin to imagine. Using the eye as an example, he coined the phrase, “organs of extreme perfection and complication” and recognized his theory’s inability to explain them. New discoveries only exacerbate these shortcomings.

And despite frequent references to “organic chemicals” present on the formative earth, neither Darwin nor modern scientists can demonstrate how to get from these compounds to just a single-cell living organism, or even a virus -- let alone the complex life forms. The search for that initial “spark” of life, or an explanation of why it is no longer in evidence, has been forever elusive.

Ironically, the scientific community, which anxiously tries to find evidence of other intelligent life in the universe, blatantly turns its back on the one intelligence we have the most indication of: a creator; a master chemist for whom the DNA code -- a puzzle which even our terrestrial species is just starting to grasp -- is a simple blueprint.

Even though ID relies not at all on the Bible, it does leave open the conclusion that the designer is the biblical God and this implication of God is what the Darwinists seem to fear.

So there may yet be hope for these folks since the Psalmist says, “The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.” Let’s hope they eventually wise up.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: creationisminadress; crevolist; dishonestfundies; dishonestmonkeymen; goddooditamen; iddupes; idiocy; idjunkscience; ignoranceisstrength; junkscience; madmokeymen; pseudoscience; superstitiousnuts; yeccultists
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To: gleeaikin

methinks you bark up the wrong tree - I'm solidly in the evo camp here, and am well aware of the wide array of fossil transitionals. Hell, on this I'm kind of an extremist, considering every living fertile individual a potential progenitor of substantial speciation, and thus in themselves being transitional specimens within their species pools, which themselves are by default transitional :)


381 posted on 01/17/2006 1:18:54 AM PST by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: Quick1

All along I thought the old argument was, "can God microwave a burrito so hot that even He can't eat it?


Not bad, but Descartes never heard of a microwave.


382 posted on 01/17/2006 1:19:00 AM PST by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: Dog Gone
Evolution doesn't address the origin of life, no matter how many times it's accused of that.

It cetainly did in the late 1960s. Are you too younger to remember the prinordial soup explanation in school text books? Evolutionists now petend evolution never addressed the origin of life because they now know that abiogenesis is impossible. the fact that evolutionists refuse to address thye origins of life is a de facto admission that life is not a result of random chance.

383 posted on 01/17/2006 1:19:05 AM PST by connectthedots
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To: Tailgunner Joe

"Why Are Darwinists So Afraid of Intelligent Design?"

Answer: They are really afraid of God.


384 posted on 01/17/2006 1:21:31 AM PST by Cindy
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To: RunningWolf
The rest of the many flaws are of your own origin, however all share that with you to some degree.

No, none of these thoughts originated with me but with but with Descartes and many other well known philosophers. Descartes did the six ontological proofs for the existence of God and was refuted by the six ontological proofs against the existence of God
385 posted on 01/17/2006 1:38:03 AM PST by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: mnehrling
Its become taboo, even sacrilege for scientists to explore the divine

Scientists are not required to be atheists. They are welcome to explore the divine on their own in their religious lives.

I know a point a lot of ID/Crevos make is that science is a religion, but perhaps it will help if you keep repeating to yourself: Religion is not science; Religion is not science; Religion is not science.

Kind of like a Gregorian chant if you do it with the right rhythm

386 posted on 01/17/2006 1:47:24 AM PST by Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit ("A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both." - Dwight D. Eisenhower)
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To: King Prout
that CAN'T be sincere. can it?

It seems to actually believe the things it parrots from creationist websites. Check out its homepage.

387 posted on 01/17/2006 1:51:13 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: King Prout
let's not accuse religious folk of sins they didn't own, ok?
we must strive to be fair in our little wars, yes?

I have not accused any religious folks of anything. I have only restated the proofs, for and against, that form the foundation of thought for the existence of God. Religious folk are guilty of their own sin without accusation. Most aspire to convince others of their position with opinion, belief, and faith. For centuries there has been many proofs argued that are strongly in their favor. It is not my fault that they fail to study or understand the proofs presented by the philosophy of their own religion but only flout opinions without logical deduction. Their position could be strengthen with a little study.
388 posted on 01/17/2006 2:17:47 AM PST by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: reasonmclucus; King Prout
It's the Darwinist religious fanatics who are ignorant, dishonest or both.

If I ever meet a "Darwinist religious fanatic", I'll be sure to check them out and see whether they match your description.

If, however, you meant to slur the millions of people who know that evolutionary biology is valid, then you're just engaging in silly ad hominem. Tell ya what, son, you'd probably write me off as a "Darwinist religious fanatic" -- look over any or all of my hundreds of posts on evolutionary biology and see if you can support the charge that I'm "ignorant, dishonest, or both".

If not, and if you fail to retract your libel, then it should be clear that you yourself are being "ignorant, dishonest, or both".

Darwinism is a religious belief that has nothing to do with science.

Wow, you've never actually cracked open a science journal relating to biology, have you? I've read several thousand biology research papers, and evolutionary biology is very much "real science". Only someone incredibly ignorant (or, indeed, dishonest) could make the kinds of claims you make here, because they are very transparently not true.

Darwinists have adopted the beliefs of various groups and covered them with a pseudo scientific veneer.

What's "pseudoscientific" about, say, this for example? Be specific. Once you've warmed up on that, take a stab at these:

Accelerated Evolution of the ASPM Gene Controlling Brain Size Begins Prior to Human Brain Expansion
Abstract: Primary microcephaly (MCPH) is a neurodevelopmental disorder characterized by global reduction in cerebral cortical volume. The microcephalic brain has a volume comparable to that of early hominids, raising the possibility that some MCPH genes may have been evolutionary targets in the expansion of the cerebral cortex in mammals and especially primates. Mutations in ASPM, which encodes the human homologue of a fly protein essential for spindle function, are the most common known cause of MCPH. Here we have isolated large genomic clones containing the complete ASPM gene, including promoter regions and introns, from chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutan, and rhesus macaque by transformation-associated recombination cloning in yeast. We have sequenced these clones and show that whereas much of the sequence of ASPM is substantially conserved among primates, specific segments are subject to high Ka/Ks ratios (nonsynonymous/synonymous DNA changes) consistent with strong positive selection for evolutionary change. The ASPM gene sequence shows accelerated evolution in the African hominoid clade, and this precedes hominid brain expansion by several million years. Gorilla and human lineages show particularly accelerated evolution in the IQ domain of ASPM. Moreover, ASPM regions under positive selection in primates are also the most highly diverged regions between primates and nonprimate mammals. We report the first direct application of TAR cloning technology to the study of human evolution. Our data suggest that evolutionary selection of specific segments of the ASPM sequence strongly relates to differences in cerebral cortical size.
Identification of paralogous HERV-K LTRs on human chromosomes 3, 4, 7 and 11 in regions containing clusters of olfactory receptor genes
Abstract: A locus harboring a human endogenous retroviral LTR (long terminal repeat) was mapped on the short arm of human chromosome 7 (7p22), and its evolutionary history was investigated. Sequences of two human genome fragments that were homologous to the LTR-flanking sequences were found in human genome databases: (1) an LTR-containing DNA fragment from region 3p13 of the human genome, which includes clusters of olfactory receptor genes and pseudogenes; and (2) a fragment of region 21q22.1 lacking LTR sequences. PCR analysis demonstrated that LTRs with highly homologous flanking sequences could be found in the genomes of human, chimp, gorilla, and orangutan, but were absent from the genomes of gibbon and New World monkeys. A PCR assay with a primer set corresponding to the sequence from human Chr 3 allowed us to detect LTR-containing paralogous sequences on human chromosomes 3, 4, 7, and 11. The divergence times for the LTR-flanking sequences on chromosomes 3 and 7, and the paralogous sequence on chromosome 21, were evaluated and used to reconstruct the order of duplication events and retroviral insertions. (1) An initial duplication event that occurred 14-17 Mya and before LTR insertion - produced two loci, one corresponding to that located on Chr 21, while the second was the ancestor of the loci on chromosomes 3 and 7. (2) Insertion of the LTR (most probably as a provirus) into this ancestral locus took place 13 Mya. (3) Duplication of the LTR-containing ancestral locus occurred 11 Mya, forming the paralogous modern loci on Chr 3 and 7.
Birth and adaptive evolution of a hominoid gene that supports high neurotransmitter flux
Abstract: The enzyme glutamate dehydrogenase (GDH) is important for recycling the chief excitatory neurotransmitter, glutamate, during neurotransmission. Human GDH exists in housekeeping and brain-specific isotypes encoded by the genes GLUD1 and GLUD2, respectively. Here we show that GLUD2 originated by retroposition from GLUD1 in the hominoid ancestor less than 23 million years ago. The amino acid changes responsible for the unique brain-specific properties of the enzyme derived from GLUD2 occurred during a period of positive selection after the duplication event.
A uniquely human consequence of domain-specific functional adaptation in a sialic acid–binding receptor
Abstract: Most mammalian cell surfaces display two major sialic acids (Sias), N-acetylneuraminic acid (Neu5Ac) and N-glycolylneuraminic acid (Neu5Gc). Humans lack Neu5Gc due to a mutation in CMP-Neu5Ac hydroxylase, which occurred after evolutionary divergence from great apes. We describe an apparent consequence of human Neu5Gc loss: domain-specific functional adaptation of Siglec-9, a member of the family of sialic acid–binding receptors of innate immune cells designated the CD33-related Siglecs (CD33rSiglecs). Binding studies on recombinant human Siglec-9 show recognition of both Neu5Ac and Neu5Gc. In striking contrast, chimpanzee and gorilla Siglec-9 strongly prefer binding Neu5Gc. Simultaneous probing of multiple endogenous CD33rSiglecs on circulating blood cells of human, chimp, or gorilla suggests that the binding differences observed for Siglec-9 are representative of multiple CD33rSiglecs. We conclude that Neu5Ac-binding ability of at least some human CD33rSiglecs is a derived state selected for following loss of Neu5Gc in the hominid lineage. These data also indicate that endogenous Sias (rather than surface Sias of bacterial pathogens) are the functional ligands of CD33rSiglecs and suggest that the endogenous Sia landscape is the major factor directing evolution of CD33rSiglec binding specificity. Exon-1-encoded Sia-recognizing domains of human and ape Siglec-9 share only 93–95% amino acid identity. In contrast, the immediately adjacent intron and exon 2 have the 98–100% identity typically observed among these species. Together, our findings suggest ongoing adaptive evolution specific to the Sia-binding domain, possibly of an episodic nature. Such domain-specific divergences should also be considered in upcoming comparisons of human and chimpanzee genomes.
Lineage-Specific Gene Duplication and Loss in Human and Great Ape Evolution
Abstract: Given that gene duplication is a major driving force of evolutionary change and the key mechanism underlying the emergence of new genes and biological processes, this study sought to use a novel genome-wide approach to identify genes that have undergone lineage-specific duplications or contractions among several hominoid lineages. Interspecies cDNA array-based comparative genomic hybridization was used to individually compare copy number variation for 39,711 cDNAs, representing 29,619 human genes, across five hominoid species, including human. We identified 1,005 genes, either as isolated genes or in clusters positionally biased toward rearrangement-prone genomic regions, that produced relative hybridization signals unique to one or more of the hominoid lineages. Measured as a function of the evolutionary age of each lineage, genes showing copy number expansions were most pronounced in human (134) and include a number of genes thought to be involved in the structure and function of the brain. This work represents, to our knowledge, the first genome-wide gene-based survey of gene duplication across hominoid species. The genes identified here likely represent a significant majority of the major gene copy number changes that have occurred over the past 15 million years of human and great ape evolution and are likely to underlie some of the key phenotypic characteristics that distinguish these species.
Sequence Variation Within the Fragile X Locus
Abstract: The human genome provides a reference sequence, which is a template for resequencing studies that aim to discover and interpret the record of common ancestry that exists in extant genomes. To understand the nature and pattern of variation and linkage disequilibrium comprising this history, we present a study of ~31 kb spanning an ~70 kb region of FMR1, sequenced in a sample of 20 humans (worldwide sample) and four great apes (chimp, bonobo, and gorilla). Twenty-five polymorphic sites and two insertion/deletions, distributed in 11 unique haplotypes, were identified among humans. Africans are the only geographic group that do not share any haplotypes with other groups. Parsimony analysis reveals two main clades and suggests that the four major human geographic groups are distributed throughout the phylogenetic tree and within each major clade. An African sample appears to be most closely related to the common ancestor shared with the three other geographic groups. Nucleotide diversity, [pi], for this sample is 2.63 ± 6.28 × 10-4. The mutation rate, [mu], is 6.48 × 10-10 per base pair per year, giving an ancestral population size of ~6200 and a time to the most recent common ancestor of ~320,000 ± 72,000 per base pair per year. Linkage disequilibrium (LD) at the FMR1 locus, evaluated by conventional LD analysis and by the length of segment shared between any two chromosomes, is extensive across the region.
Structural and evolutionary analysis of the two chimpanzee alpha-globin mRNAs
Abstract: Two distinct alpha-globin mRNAs were detected in chimpanzee reticulocyte mRNA using a primer extension assay. DNA copies of these two mRNAs were cloned in the bacterial plasmid pBR322, and their sequence was determined. The two alpha-globin mRNAs have obvious structural homology to the two human alpha-globin mRNAs, alpha 1 and alpha 2. Comparison of the two chimpanzee alpha-globin mRNAs to each other and to their corresponding human counterparts revealed evidence of a recent gene conversion in the human alpha-globin complex and a marked heterogeneity in the rate of structural divergence within the alpha-globin gene.
Differential Alu Mobilization and Polymorphism Among the Human and Chimpanzee Lineages
Abstract: Alu elements are primate-specific members of the SINE (short interspersed element) retroposon family, which comprise ~10% of the human genome. Here we report the first chromosomal-level comparison examining the Alu retroposition dynamics following the divergence of humans and chimpanzees. We find a twofold increase in Alu insertions in humans in comparison to the common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes). The genomic diversity (polymorphism for presence or absence of the Alu insertion) associated with these inserts indicates that, analogous to recent nucleotide diversity studies, the level of chimpanzee Alu diversity is ~1.7 times higher than that of humans. Evolutionarily recent Alu subfamily structure differs markedly between the human and chimpanzee lineages, with the major human subfamilies remaining largely inactive in the chimpanzee lineage. We propose a population-based model to account for the observed fluctuation in Alu retroposition rates across primate taxa.
Adaptive Evolution of MRG, a Neuron-Specific Gene Family Implicated in Nociception
Abstract: The MRG gene family (also known as SNSR) belongs to the G-protein-coupled receptor (GPCR) superfamily, is expressed specifically in nociceptive neurons, and is implicated in the modulation of nociception. Here, we show that Ka/Ks (the ratio between nonsynonymous and synonymous substitution rates) displays distinct profiles along the coding regions of MRG, with peaks (Ka/Ks > 1) corresponding to extracellular domains, and valleys (Ka/Ks < 1) corresponding to transmembrane and cytoplasmic domains. The extracellular domains are also characterized by a significant excess of radical amino acid changes. Statistical analysis shows that positive selection is by far the most suitable model to account for the nucleotide substitution patterns in MRG. Together, these results demonstrate that the extracellular domains of the MRG receptor family, which presumably partake in ligand binding, have experienced strong positive selection. Such selection is likely directed at altering the sensitivity and/or selectivity of nociceptive neurons to aversive stimuli. Thus, our finding suggests pain perception as an aspect of the nervous system that may have experienced a surprising level of adaptive evolution.

The idea that current species once looked different comes from various North American beliefs.

No, it comes from the overwhelming evidence.

The idea of humans being descended from monkeys/apes comes from ancient Tibetan beliefs.

No, it comes from the fossil evidence and the DNA evidence, which exists in massive abundance and cross-validates along multiple independent lines.

The Darwinist belief that all life has a common origin is pure religion and is scientifically impossible if life developed without the aid of some Intelligence.

Nonsense. It's clear in the DNA and biochemistry for anyone who chars to look.

A "natural" process would have been able to produce many different life forms from scratch independently from each over a long period of time.

Probably not, actually. Once the original life forms reached a moderately advanced stage, any further "life from scratch" events wouldn't have a chance -- they'd get eaten by the life that had already gotten a head start, most likely.

Furthermore, when life first appeared on Earth, there was no oxygen in the atmosphere. After a while, the new life produced enough oxygen to change the atmosphere significantly. This may well have altered the Earth in a way that forever removed the chemical conditions which allowed life to form from scratch again. It's well known that the earliest unicellular life on Earth was oxygen-intolerant.

You really need to think things through more before you try to pontificate upon them. These topics have been covered at length in the science journals -- try reading a few for a change.

The life forms observed after mass extinctions could have developed from scratch as new species if life developed "naturally".

Probably not -- see above.

Most Darwinists seem incapable of understanding what Intelligent Design means.

Actually, they understand it better than most of the IDers.

Critique of “Intelligent Design” (ID)

Kitzmiller et al. v. Dover Area School District

I.D. looks at biological life and recognizes that the only physical systems that are comparable to biological organisms in terms of structure and regularity of operation are the machines constructed by human beings, generally considered to be intelligent beings.

For a really good critique of what's wrong with that line of reasoning, see:

The advantages of theft over toil: the design inference and arguing from ignorance

The biological cell is a biochemical computer with molecular memory that is organized in a manner that can be expressed as "0's" and "1's".

No, actually, it isn't. I know computers, and I know biology, and they are very much *not* alike.

Here's what I wrote in reply to a prior example of the same kind of argument:

In general, the fact of reuse of large amounts of genetic material is nothing more than something "consistant with" an evolutionary historical hypothesis, and in no way proves it or makes it scientific. It is just another level of the forensic-type science where, when we do a DNA test and find results much different than expected, it doesn't change in any way the "theory of evolution", but has a large effect on the historical evolution hypothesis.

You're missing the point -- although we're occasionally surprised by the DNA implications for a particular evolutionary history (i.e., which species diverged from which ancestors when), we have not yet *ever* been surprised by finding a genetic difference between species which was *not* entirely compatible with evolutionary origins. And we *would* very quickly and very obviously find such discordance between the contents of the DNA and evolutionary theory if, in fact, the DNA of modern living things was *not* the result of evolutionary processes.

It's nothing as simple as just "reuse of large amounts of genetic material" which provides support for evolution, it's the very specific *kinds* and exact *patterns* of DNA which support an evolutionary origin to the exclusion of alternative hypotheses (except for the ad hoc one which postulates that some designer *purposely* crafted our DNA in order to *fake* an evolutionary origin).

[...]

This is analogous to computer programming. If you look at a lot of computer programs, you will find common code. This does not suggest that one program "evolved" into another, or even that one programmer extended the one program into the other. It could be that the same programmer wrote both, or that somebody wrote a snippet of code and published it and others used it. It is not predictive to determining the history of a piece of code. It is also common in looking at code to find that two programs which have the same function don't use the same code, even if they are written by the same programmer.

That's a common argument, but it doesn't stand up to close examination. I've written thousands of computer programs, *and* produced code via genetic algorithms (aka "evolutionary computing"). No one could possibly mistake the one type of program for the other. The results are vastly different in form and character, and each contains features which clearly distinguish it from the other.

Similarly, the evolutionary character of DNA is clear and distinctive. The hallmarks of evolution go far beyond mere "reuse of code". For example, it contains features that no sane designer would ever use (such as silent codon differences which vary in exact evolutionary patterns -- it's as if you, as a programmer, randomly changed characters in the variable names in source used in common between all your programs, while having no effect on the compiled code, *and* did it in a way that falsely implied an evolutionary relationship between all the programs you wrote...) Furthermore, a designer has *vastly* more design options to him than *just* the ones which could result from evolutionary processes, and yet "oddly" enough, such structures are not found in DNA -- if there's a designer, why would he restrict himself in that way? *I* certainly don't write my programs in only those ways that could have been produced by genetic algorithms...


389 posted on 01/17/2006 2:25:01 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon
hexadecimal hooey placemarker
390 posted on 01/17/2006 2:31:27 AM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: reasonmclucus
Stephen Jay Gould considered himself an evolutionist even though he disagreed with the idea of slow gradual change through whatever "natural" process produced life.

This is a gross misrepresentation of Gould's actual position.

Excerpt, wherein Gould is discussing misconceptions about his position:

"I do not know why this happened; I think that all our articles and public statements were clear in separating human from geological rapidity. The theory, after all, is rooted in this distinction —- for punctuated equilibrium is the recognition that gradualism on our mortal measuring rod of three score years and ten translates to suddenness at the planet's temporal scale."

391 posted on 01/17/2006 2:32:24 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: King Prout

one minor side note: it does not appear to have been true that most people who considered the matter at all ever considered the earth to be flat.

True or not true, that was the the proof to refute. Many of the same era sought to prove us the center of the universe and for a time logical deduction existed that the sun revolved around the earth. This refute stated most believe we are the center of the universe therefore it must be true. It has long been proved false but there are many even today who believe us the center.


392 posted on 01/17/2006 2:40:13 AM PST by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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Comment #393 Removed by Moderator

To: jec41

correct me if I err, but I believe you did bring up the idea that at some point "most people thought the world was flat" and resisted re-evaluation of reality based on their belief in the same. It seemed to me you
either explicitly or implicitly connected these notional flat-earthers with the religious majority of their day.

While I agree with your over-arching argument that large-scale belief in a concept does not make that concept either fact-based or a valid model of reality, I felt moved to note that, so far as history indicates, there was never any large-scale belief among Roman Catholics or Protestant Europeans in the flat-earth model.

Indeed, the cockroach-like durability of this flat-earth BELIEF myth is a better illustration of your point than the mythical belief itself - that an horrible anti-catholic propagandic hit-piece coined by one of the most prolific (and lamest) historical "fancifiers" (ie: fiction spinners) in US history would become an article of faith among most Americans (indeed: worldwide), educated and unlettered alike, within a very brief span of years in the 1800s and become concreted into "accepted fact" throughout the 1900s (despite a profound lack of any supporting evidence and rather pervasive evidence to the contrary) does not and never did make this awful slander against our ancestors into a real factual record.

That it was perpetrated by an antireligous bigot "enlightenment man" serves to show that this tendency to toss out and fall for the big lie is hardly a sin cornered by the religious crowd.


394 posted on 01/17/2006 2:52:05 AM PST by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: jec41; Ichneumon

the geocentric model predates christianity by quite a few years - was it Ptolemy or Plato who coined it? can't recall... one o' them musty Hellenes.

anyway, it was the accepted model before the church, and the church found it in accord to a couple of passages in the Scripture which spoke of the sun moving around the earth.

Catholic teachings held it to be true.
On the other hand, those same teachings held the Scripture to be open to interpretation, and of lesser authority as a work (at least in part) of Man than was the reality of the physical universe - which those very same teachings held to be the masterwork of the Lord God Almighty and the supreme test of factuality. Scripture itself could not be in error, but its interpretation could readily be, and such interpretation had to accord with reality, not the reverse.

The church, like any established body, resists change. They required hefty proofs before altering scriptural interpretation. Galileo could not, in 1633, provide those proofs. The fellows he slandered and plagiarized (very good astronomers, and Jesuit priests iirc) could have, but they were rather understandably ticked off at the arrogant old curmudgeon. I don't remember his name, but one thereof iirc was a key figure in bringing charges of heresy (persistend rejection of church teachings) against Galileo, on the grounds that he *knew* Galileo was stretching his arguments beyond what the data could substantiate.

The Pope, Urban somethingorother, was an old friend of Galileo's and quietly his partisan (despite his being lampooned as "Simplicio" in Galileo's book), but...

There was also Spain and France and the ongoing 30 Years War to deal with.

Bad political conditions were Galileo's real bane... along with being a prick and overstating his case beyond what data he had could prove. As I noted earlier in this thread, the inquisition treated him exceptionally mildly.

Anyway, the "proof to refute" or whatever was a traditional church interpretation of the Scripture - believing other than church teachings was heresy... unless you could demonstrate that reality did not beave in the manner that the church taught. If you could do that, as reality trumps scriptural interpretation, then it isn't heresy and the church is duty bound to rethink their interpretation and alter their teachings accordingly.

It's a stupid system, but not so bad as you paint it, and in no way was it Galileo against Stubbornly Ignorant Public Opinion, the way it so often is for scientists against the assorted hounds of bedlam here in the CREVO Wars.

And, again - no educated person from the time of Augustus (at least) thought the earth was flat.


395 posted on 01/17/2006 3:16:08 AM PST by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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Too many syllables placemark
396 posted on 01/17/2006 3:20:41 AM PST by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: King Prout

This thread seems to have sprouted while I slept. Thanks for the pings.


397 posted on 01/17/2006 3:31:55 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: PatrickHenry

oh.
you slept.
suuurrrre...
rub it in: yon loons have succeeded in keeping me up all night


398 posted on 01/17/2006 3:45:38 AM PST by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: King Prout

Well, I'll get the prime.


399 posted on 01/17/2006 3:58:12 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: King Prout

400


400 posted on 01/17/2006 3:58:23 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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