It's the demography, stupid ..... Mark Steyn

The New Criterion ^ | 2 Jan 2006 | Mark Steyn

[expatpat]

how soft and pathetic Europe has become

May I remind you that the same could be said of the Brits in the late 30's, but when their homeland was threatened, they became ferocious, if under-armed. Never underestimate a people fighting on/near their own territory -- remember the Vietnamese.

[danamco]

I'm aware of the problem in Malmo, but what is your point? Actually, I wasn't thinking of Sweden -- the Swedes lost their cojones long ago, as their posture in WWII showed.


My point is that Stein is RIGHT, he just hit the nail in Europe's coffin. What's going on in the last two decades in Sweden is spreading like wildfire in the European countries south of them, and you will NOT have enough birth rates to support the elderly population's high welfare "benefits" because the living rates goes up every year!!!

[MrNatural]

Although he uses the phrase "Western Civilization", Steyn seems more focused on the end of Europe. In that area I pretty much agree with his conclusions and predictions, except I think it will all come sooner, since I think the number of Mulsims in Europe is consistently underestimated, and they don't need a working majority to start raising hell and demanding things that the EU governments can't give.

I believe all the Western European countries fall into the above pattern: i.e., it's worse than they are willing to admit. But the Old World will have one final bequest to the New; the spectacle of its death throes. At some point, major elements of the indigenous populations will dig in and fight. What the details of the struggle will be .. who knows? But, if we do not intervene in strength, it will be protracted and bloody; there will be battles in the cities, bloody victories and bloody defeats, desperate final defenses finally overwhelmed, with gruesome results for any survivors; there will be waves of terrified refugees with horrific stories of muslim atrocities. The current political correctness about the true nature of islam will be swept away, and islam will become firmly connected in the public mind with vicious barbarism, savage religious intolerance and oppression of every kind.

10 years ago, few Americans thought that illegal immigration was a big deal. That changed, as the effects became manifest everywhere in the country, and now it's an issue that public opinion has forced into the open. The inexplicable political correctness of government officials (does Vicente Fox have pictures of George Bush with farm animals, or what?) has been broken through by the only thing that could do it, the strong and strengthening opinion of the voters that illegal immigration is a Really Bad Thing. GW is still mumbling occasionally about his "guest worker" (= amnesty) program, but everyone knows that's not going anywhere.

So I think it will happen with public opinion regarding islam . There will be a period of time that future historians may call the Islamic-European War, within which (again, if we do not intervene) a date or event may be selected which they will decide marked the Fall of Europe. When that period is over, there will be no doubt in the minds of a large majority of those in the remaining West that Islam, inherently, is incompatible with our ideas of civilization.

Where we go from there, what kind of responses we make to Eurabia, and to islam within the US, is anyone's guess. Certainly there will be strong support for discontinuing any immigration by muslims, and even for subjecting US citzens who are muslim to very high levels of scrutiny for any hint of subversive activity. There will still be those ("not justifying what the muslims have done, mind you") wringing their hands about "religious intolerance" .. like the poor, they are always with us.

But in the end I think Lincoln's view will prevail, that "the US Constitution is not a suicide pact".

[Rummyfan]

When that period is over, there will be no doubt in the minds of a large majority of those in the remaining West that Islam, inherently, is incompatible with our ideas of civilization.

Sooner or later we have to come to this consensus and take the appropriate action.

[chet_in_ny]

wow, excellent read.

[Chanticleer]

Sadly, when if it we come to this consensus, it may be too late to take appropriate action.

Virtues like faith (at least in a Judaeo-Christian faith), patriotism, and self-control are no longer virtues in mainstream society. The school system and the entertainment industry have been very effective in undermining these virtues. To replace them, we have been given spiritualism, multiculturalism and abandon.

[expatpat]

That was not the part of Steyn's essay that I disagreed with. The problem of supporting the elderly is widespread, I agree, including the US Social Security system. But you were making a big thing about the congregation of Muslims in Malmo, which is a different point.

[dennisw]

mega Dittos

[ABG(anybody but Gore)]

Bump for later reading.

[Little Ray]

Sorry. I think it was mostly killed off in WWII, or drank itself to death during the Cold War.

[Antoninus]

May I remind you that the same could be said of the Brits in the late 30's, but when their homeland was threatened, they became ferocious, if under-armed.

You may. And I'll point out to you that in the 1930s, the British still had 1.) the most powerful navy in the world, 2.) a vast and far-flung empire, 3.) the remnants of an understanding that producing and rearing children is of paramount importance in the continuance of a nation, and 4.) a reasonably strong sense of right and wrong based on their Judeo-Christian heritage.

Tell me, which of the above four do the British still possess?

[steve-b]

I am less alarmed than Steyn with respect to the ability of Western society to function on a less-populated and older-median-age model. Given a measure that doesn't figure into these calculations, i.e. the longer span of productivity of latterday humanity and the help that technology promises with respect to yet longer health, it appears to me that we might very well ride out this period of low birthrate, in the absence of demographic changes produced by migration. That's always the issue - history is, if it may be distilled to one single measure, the story of migratory peoples coming on new land, very little of which was unpopulated before they happened along. In that sense I think Steyn correct when he blows the warning horn on the influx of the unassimilatable. It is this, and not just birthrates, that is the immediate peril for Europe, IMHO.

You nailed it. The demographic portion Steyn's argument is a variant of The Vision Of The Anointed -- alarmed that people left to their own devices don't do what he thinks they ought to do (e.g. have more kids), he builds a doomsday case by ignoring the positive results of cumulative individual decisions (e.g. concentrating more attention on fewer warm bodies cranks up per-capita productivity).

[steve-b]

To solve that problem societies have to tackle the real problem, i.e. they need to make it possible for their own seventeen to twenty-five year olds to marry and have children at the ages when we're biologically programmed to do so (16 - 25)

Er, every Western nation I'm aware of does make that possible.

[Barney Gumble]

Even though the football hooligans are tough on a local level, they are inconsequential. They don't vote and if they do it's for the Labour party anyway. Additionally, their politics can still be largely liberal. Although they'll attack someone who disrespects their football team, they still agree with the status quo that Bush is a moron for fighting back against the Muzzies.

Essentially they are a big contradiction upon themselves. They believe in standing up for themselves individually, but not as a country as a whole. (I think the football hooligan is a result of liberals who try to quelch any form of masculinity.)

By the time the football hooligans stop focusing on the next Old Firm game long enough to care about the invasion, the UK will be overrun with Muzzies and they'll be in the midst of a civil war. They are too ignorant to care now when it is still possible to change the course of invevitable history.

[expatpat]

A (1)poweful navy and (2) vast empire are of no value in a battle with local Muslims. I think (4) is still present, and I don't know about #3; however, you don't need either in driving off the Muslims during the next 5-10 years.

[expatpat]

No, the civil war will start with local skirmishes between these guys and Pakistani gangs, a la the recent troubles in the Sydney area.

[hattend]

For example, one day in 2004, a couple of Canadians returned home, to Lester B. Pearson International Airport in Toronto. They were the son and widow of a fellow called Ahmed Said Khadr, who back on the Pakistani-Afghan frontier was known as “al-Kanadi.” Why? Because he was the highest-ranking Canadian in al Qaeda—plenty of other Canucks in al Qaeda but he was the Numero Uno. In fact, one could argue that the Khadr family is Canada’s principal contribution to the war on terror. Granted they’re on the wrong side (if you’ll forgive me being judgmental) but no can argue that they aren’t in the thick of things. One of Mr. Khadr’s sons was captured in Afghanistan after killing a U.S. Special Forces medic. Another was captured and held at Guantanamo. A third blew himself up while killing a Canadian soldier in Kabul. Pa Khadr himself died in an al Qaeda shoot-out with Pakistani forces in early 2004. And they say we Canadians aren’t doing our bit in this war!

And to think, a family like this could be on your block, waiting for the word to go berserking.

[Thunder 6]

I'd like to throw this out for consideration: Hundreds of thousands of young (and not so young) Americans have now seen Islamic "Civilization" and "culture" up close, and more will follow during the next years in the WOT. Where? The Armed Forces.

Most of these kids will come home, with an even stronger conviction that America IS the greatest nation on earth.

Most of these kids are conservative, God fearing, and want to raise families.

There is hope for the future.

Regards,

[eyespysomething]

mark to read later

[Liberty Tree Surgeon]

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