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Middle Class Job Losses Batter Economy
Associated Press | January 2 2006 | Associated Press and Vicki Smith

Posted on 01/02/2006 4:19:44 AM PST by ventana

AP Middle-Class Job Losses Batter Workforce Sunday January 1, 8:53 pm ET By Kathy Barks Hoffman, Associated Press Writer Middle-Class Job Losses Batter Workforce As Companies Slash Payrolls, Send Jobs Overseas

LANSING, Mich. (AP) -- Thirty years ago, Dan Fairbanks looked at the jobs he could get with his college degree and what he could make working the line at General Motors Corp., and decided the GM job looked better.

He still thinks he made the right choice. But with GM planning to end production of the Chevrolet SSR and shut down the Lansing Craft Centre where he works sometime in mid-2006, Fairbanks faces an uncertain future.

"Back when I hired in at General Motors 30 years ago, it seemed like a good, secure job," said Fairbanks, president since June of UAW Local 1618. Since then, "I've seen good times and I've seen bad times. This qualifies as a bad time, in more ways than one."

Many of the country's manufacturing workers are caught in a worldwide economic shift that is forcing companies to slash payrolls or send jobs elsewhere, leaving workers to wonder if their way of life is disappearing.

The trend in the manufacturing sector toward lower pay, fewer benefits and fewer jobs is alarming many of them.

"They end up paying more of their health care and they end up with lousier pensions -- if they keep one at all," says Michigan AFL-CIO President Mark Gaffney. As wages and benefits drop, "it's the working class that's paying the price."

West Virginia steelworkers are all too familiar with the problem. The former Weirton Steel Corp., which 20 years ago had some 13,000 employees, today has just 1,300 union workers left on the job.

The steel mill has changed hands twice in two years, and just last month, Mittal Steel Co. told the Independent Steelworkers Union it would permanently cut the jobs of 800 people who'd been laid off since summer.

Larry Keister, 50, of Weirton, W.Va., has 31 years in the mill that his father and brothers all joined. His son tried, but got laid off quickly.

"I'm too old to go back to school. I've worked there all my life," says Keister, who drives a buggy in the tin mill. "I went there straight out of high school. It's all I know."

Though Keister is safe for now from layoffs, he wonders what will happen to the hundreds of friends and co-workers who will be jobless by the end of January.M

Gary Colflesh, 56, of Bloomingdale, Ohio, said there are few jobs in nearby Ohio or Pennsylvania for workers to move to.

"They're destroying the working class. Why can't people see this?" asked the 38-year veteran. "Anybody who works in manufacturing has no future in this country, unless you want to work for wages they get in China."

Abby Abdo, 52, of Weirton, said workers once believed that if they accepted pay cuts and shunned strikes, they would keep their jobs. Not anymore.

"Once they get what they want, they kick us to the curb," he said. "There's no guarantee anymore. No pensions. No health care. No job security. We have none of those things anymore."

Fairbanks of the Lansing GM plant said the changes are going to force a lot of people to retrench to deal with the new economic reality. For some, it will make it harder to send their children to college or be able to retire when they want. For others, it will mean giving up some of the trappings a comfortable income can bring.

"You're going to see lake property, you're going to see boats, you're going to see motorcycles hit the market," he said. "People get rid of the toys."

Economists agree the outlook is changing for workers who moved from high school to good-paying factory jobs two and three decades ago, or for those seeking that lifestyle now.

"It was possible for people with a high school education to get a job that paid $75,000 to $100,000 and six weeks of paid vacation. Those jobs are disappearing," says Patrick Anderson of Anderson Economic Group in East Lansing, Mich. "The ... low-skill, upper-middle-class way of life is in danger."

General Motors Corp. has announced that it plans to cut 30,000 hourly jobs by 2008. Ford Motor Co. is scheduled to announce plant closings and layoffs in January that could affect at least 15,000 workers in the United States and Mexico, analysts say, and is cutting thousands from its white-collar work force.

GM and Ford have won concessions from the United Auto Workers that will require active and retired workers to pick up more of their health care costs, and DaimlerChrysler AG is seeking similar concessions.

Thomas Klier, senior economist with the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, says the transition for manufacturers toward leaner, lower-cost operations has been going on for some time. But the bankruptcy of the nation's largest auto supplier, Delphi Corp., pushed the issue into the headlines.

Its 34,000 hourly U.S. workers could see their pay cut from $27 an hour to less than half of that, although the company is still trying to work out a compromise unions will support. Workers also could have to pay health care deductibles for the first time and lose their dental and vision care coverage.

Delphi worker Michael Balls of Saginaw, Mich., hears the argument that U.S. companies' costs are too high to compete with plants that pay workers less overseas, but he doesn't buy it.

"I think if Delphi wins, they lose," he says. "If I'm making $9 an hour, I'm not making enough to buy vehicles."

Unfortunately for workers like Balls, the old rules no longer apply in the new global economy, says John Austin, a senior fellow with the Washington-based Brookings Institute.

"We're in a different ball game now," Austin says. "We're going to be shedding a lot of the low-education manufacturing jobs."

Some of those workers are likely to try to move into the growing service sector, Austin says. But he says the transition can be tough, even if the jobs pay as well as the ones they had -- and many don't.

"Pointing out a medical technician job is available if they go back and get a certificate doesn't solve the issue today for those 45-year-olds who are losing their jobs at Delphi," he said.

Dick Posthumus, a partner in an office furniture system manufacturing company in Grand Rapids, Mich., says that "basic, unskilled manufacturing is going to be done in China, India, places like that because we are in a global world, and there's nothing anyone can do about that."

His company, Compatico Inc., buys much of its basic parts from South Korea, Taiwan, Canada and China, where Posthumus has toured plants he says rival modern manufacturing plants in the U.S. But the company still saves its sophisticated parts-making and assembly for its Michigan plant.

"The manufacturing of tomorrow is going to look somewhat different from the manufacturing of yesterday," Posthumus says. "It doesn't mean that we no longer manufacture ... (But) it's going to be a painful adjustment."

Associated Press Writer Vicki Smith in Morgantown, W.Va., contributed to this story.


TOPICS: Business/Economy
KEYWORDS: ap; employment; freetraitors; globalism; greed; hosts; jobs; nomyyob; party; pity; union; work; workers
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To: Sunnyflorida
BTW: China tariff schedules information can be perused, in the following websites:

Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation:

China Council for the Promotion of International Trade:

Many tariffs are at between 9 & 10% but for the industries China is still aggressively pursuing dominance in, expect far higher...blowing off their obligations under the bylaws of the WTO.

561 posted on 01/03/2006 2:16:32 PM PST by Paul Ross (My idea of American policy toward the Soviet Union is simple...It is this, 'We win and they lose.')
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To: SteveH
"I fail to perceive the morality of your position."

That is the heart of our disagreement. Unfortunately, I can explain it to you but I cannot understand it for you. If you need it explained, I'm afraid it would be pointless to try.

562 posted on 01/03/2006 2:17:25 PM PST by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopechne is walking around free)
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To: Paul Ross

??
I guess there are free traders that want higher taxes. There are also pianists that drink milk. What is the necessary relationship?

I'm a free trader that wants lower, much lower, taxes. Lower taxes will do more for the economy that all the protectionism in the world (since you love the juxtaposition) :) Now I'm not opposed to hammering the Chinese. Maybe restrict the chicom's UN delegation to really restaurants and other sundry efforts - certainly don't give them weapons and send in the CIA to create problems. But the solution for trade barriers is not more barriers.


563 posted on 01/03/2006 2:19:24 PM PST by Sunnyflorida
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To: Andrewksu; Sunnyflorida

The thing that is always left unsaid in these discussions is the hard, cold fact that some jobs are not worth as much as they used to be. Just as the price of gold and other commodities rises and falls, so too does the cost of labor.

And while there are no promises in life, some people (incorrectly) feel that if they are willing to work hard and play by the rules that they'll be able to earn a decent living. The idea of a thirty year old hedge fund whiz kid who earns seven figures (with bonus) to blow on fashion models, $10,000 weekend jaunts, and pricey cars creates a moral disonance for them. In their eyes, that's not the way the world is supposed to work.


564 posted on 01/03/2006 2:21:41 PM PST by durasell (!)
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To: Sunnyflorida

Correction
really restaurants = really bad resturants.


565 posted on 01/03/2006 2:21:53 PM PST by Sunnyflorida
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To: durasell
Thanks. I know. People seem so defenseless and jealous. If one of the hedgees wants to live like that fine. It's his business, but I know these guys and I would not want to be them.

"Life is unfair." So what? Nobody can tell me making a living 20-50-100-200 years ago was easier. Simpler maybe but not easier. Do people in this country really want to add 10-20% to their Wal-Mart bill? I think not.

More people in this country know more about baseball then economics. Its a miracle that things are as good as they are. Econimics is not that complicated; it is so easy to learn. Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams have written excellent books and articles. If this was my blog I would require people to read Sowell before posting on economic topics. Many are marxist and don't know it. Odd very odd.
566 posted on 01/03/2006 2:32:29 PM PST by Sunnyflorida
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To: Sunnyflorida
Whoops again. Got to get the "good" eye fixed!

"really bad restaurants"
567 posted on 01/03/2006 2:34:02 PM PST by Sunnyflorida
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To: Sunnyflorida
I guess there are free traders that want higher taxes.

Yes, many of them right here on Free Republic.

There are also pianists that drink milk. What is the necessary relationship?

Likely a corrupt special relationship to aiding and abetting a blindered view of the Chinese imports. Probably because their meal-ticket depends on it. This is precisely the kind of trade corruption that John Jay, George Washington, and Alexander Hamilton feared. We have not out-grown the need to be concerned about this.

But the solution for trade barriers is not more barriers.

Reagan thought much the same way, but when confronted with their real impacts, he decided that he did indeed need reciprocal countering levers. Hence he employed Quotas requiring so much domestic content on certain egregious importers. This shows that he was still able to out-grow his earlier FDR mental framework.

I'm a free trader that wants lower, much lower, taxes.

Good. Here are some older ones for you to chew on, that were only finally reduced in the last two years, and then grudgingly (they still maintain massive non-tariff barriers as well...totally WTO violative and unmitigated):

 

 
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LISTS OF I/E TARIFF RATE ADJUSTMENT
BY THE STATE COUNCIL OF
PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA

  (Issued by the State Council of the People's Republic of China
on February 1, 1988)

(Although some of these tariffs remain current, many of them have been
superseded by subsequent customs regulations)

 

SUBJECT: CUSTOMS DUTIES

ISSUING-DEPT: STATE COUNCIL OF CHINA

ISSUE-DATE: 02/01/1988

IMPLEMENT-DATE: 02/01/1988

LENGTH: 3170 words

TEXT:

Table 1: Amended List for Import Tariff

 

Original Tariff

Present Tariff

Tariff

 

Import Duty

 

Import Duty

NO.

 

Rates(%)

 

Rates(%)

 

Description of Goods

 

 

Description of Goods

 

 

 

Minimum

General

 

Minimum

General

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

37.08

Chemical products

 

 

Chemical products

 

 

and flash light

 

 

and flash light

 

 

materials, of a kind

 

 

materials, of a kind

 

 

and in a form suit-

 

 

and in a form suit-

 

 

able for use in

25

35

photography

 

 

photography

 

 

1. Chemicals for

 

 

 

 

 

developing color

 

 

 

 

 

films and photos

50

70

 

 

 

 

2. Others

25

35

40.01

Natural rubber latex

 

 

Natural rubber latex

 

 

,whether or not with

 

 

,whether or not with

 

 

added synthetic

 

 

added synthetic

 

 

rubber latex; pre-

 

 

rubber latex; pre-

 

 

vulcanized natural

 

 

vulcanized natural

 

 

rubber latex; natur-

 

 

rubber latex; natur-

 

 

al rubber, balata,

 

 

al rubber, balata,

 

 

gutta-percha and

 

 

gutta-percha and

 

 

Similar natural gums

 

 

Similar natural gums

 

 

(Adjusted tariff:

 

 

(No more adjusted

 

 

40%)

20

30

tariff)

30

40

71.02

Precious and semi-

 

 

Precious and semi-

 

 

precious stones,

 

 

precious stones,

 

 

unworked, cut or

 

 

unworked,cut or

 

 

otherwise worked,

 

 

otherwise worked,

 

 

but not mounted, set

 

 

but not mounted, set

 

 

or strung (except

 

 

or strung (except

 

 

ungraded stones

 

 

ungraded stones

 

 

temporarily strung

 

 

temporarily sturng

 

 

for convenience of

 

 

for convenience of

 

 

transport):

 

 

transport):

 

 

2. Other diamonds:

 

 

2. Other diamonds:

 

 

(i) uncut and

 

 

(i) uncut and

20

30

 

unpolished

40

50

unpolished

 

 

(ii) others

70

90

(ii) others

50

70

 

3.Jadeite:

 

 

3.Jadeite:

20

30

 

(1)uncutand

40

50

(i)uncut and

20

30

 

unpolished

 

 

unpolished

 

 

(ii)others

70

90

(ii)others

 

 

4.Others:

 

 

4.Others:

 

 

(i)uncut and

40

50

(i)uncut and

20

30

 

unpolished

 

 

unpolished

 

 

(ii)others

70

90

(ii)others

50

70

71.03

Sythetic or

 

 

Sythetic or

 

 

reconstructed

 

 

reconstructed

 

 

precious or

 

 

precious or semi-

 

 

semi-percious stones,

 

 

precious tones,

 

 

unworked, cut or

 

 

unworked, cut or

 

 

otherwise worked,

 

 

otherwise worked, but

 

 

but not mounted, set

 

 

not mounted, set or

 

 

or strung (except

 

 

strung (execpt ung-

 

 

ungraded stones

 

 

raded stones tempor-

 

 

temporarily strung

 

 

arily strung for

 

 

for convenience of

 

 

convenience of

 

 

transport

 

 

transport):

 

 

 

 

 

2.Others:

 

 

 

 

 

(i) uncut and

20

30

 

2.Others:

 

 

unpolished

 

 

(i) uncut or

40

50

(ii) others

50

70

 

(ii) others

70

90

 

76.08

Structures and parts

 

 

Structures and parts

 

 

of structures (for

 

 

of structures (for

 

 

example, hangers and

 

 

example, hangers and

 

 

other buildings,

 

 

other building,

 

 

bridges and bridge-

 

 

bridges and bridge

 

 

sections, towers,

 

 

sections, towers,

 

 

lattice masts, roofs,

 

 

lattice masts, roofs,

 

 

roofing frameworks,

 

 

roofing frameworks

 

 

door and window

 

 

door and window

 

 

frames, balustrades

 

 

frames, balustrades,

 

 

pillars and columns)

 

 

pillars and columns)

 

 

of aluminum; plates,

 

 

of aluminum; plates

 

 

rods, angles, shapes

 

 

rods, angles, shapes

 

 

sections, tubes and

 

 

sections, tubes and

 

 

the like, prepared

 

 

the like, prepared

 

 

for use in

 

 

for use in

 

 

structures, of

 

 

structures, of

 

 

aluminum;

 

 

aluminum:

 

 

1.Shutters, gates,

 

 

1.Shutters, gates,

 

 

doors, door and

40

50

doors, door and

60

80

 

window frames and

 

 

window frames and

 

 

the like

 

 

the like

 

 

2.Others

25

35

2.Others

40

50

84.09

Mechanically

 

 

Mechanically

 

 

propelled road

 

 

propelled road

 

 

rollers;

 

 

rollers:

 

 

1.Vibration rollers

15

20

1.Vrbration rollers:

 

 

 

 

 

(i) vibration rollers

30

40

 

 

 

 

less than 18 tons

 

 

 

 

 

(ii) Others

15

20

84.12

Air-conditioning

 

 

Air-conditioning

 

 

machines, self-

 

 

machines, self-

 

 

contained.comprising

 

 

contained.comprising

 

 

a motor-driven fan

 

 

a motor-driven fan

 

 

and elements for

 

 

and elements for

 

 

changing the temper-

 

 

changing the temper-

 

 

ature and humidity

 

 

ature and humidity

 

 

of air:

 

 

of air

 

 

1.Of a refrigerating

 

 

1.Of a refrigerating

 

 

capacity of more

 

 

capacity of more

 

 

than 4.000 Kcal per

40

50

than 4,000 Kcal per

100

130

 

hour

 

 

hour

 

 

2.Others

70

90

2.Of a refrigerating

 

 

 

 

 

capacity of more

50

70

 

 

 

 

than 4,000 Kcal per

 

 

 

 

 

hour

 

 

 

 

 

3.Others

70

90

84.15

Refrigerators and

 

 

Refrigators and

 

 

refrigerating

 

 

refrigerating

 

 

equipment(electrical

 

 

equipment(electrical

 

 

and others):

 

 

and others)

 

 

1.Of a refrigerating

 

 

1.Of a refrigerating

 

 

temperature of-30

 

 

temperature of -40

 

 

or lower, or of a

 

 

or lower, or of a

 

 

capacity of more

 

 

capacity of more

 

 

than 340 liters

30

40

than 340 liters

40

50

 

2.Others

80

100

2.Others

100

130

84.19

Machinery for clean-

 

 

Machinery for clean-

 

 

ing and drying bot-

 

 

ing adn drying bot-

 

 

tles or other

 

 

tles or other

 

 

containers; machinery

 

 

containers; machinery

 

 

for filling, closing,

 

 

for filling, closing

 

 

sealing, capsuling

 

 

sealing, capsuling

 

 

or labelling bottles

 

 

or labeling bottles

 

 

cans, boxes, bags

 

 

cans, boxes, bags

 

 

or other containers;

 

 

or other containers;

 

 

other packing or

 

 

other paking or

 

 

wrapping machinery;

 

 

wrapping machinery;

 

 

machinery for aerat-

 

 

machinery for aerat

 

 

ing beverages; dish

 

 

ing beverages; dish

 

 

washing machines:

 

 

washing machines:

 

 

2.Others

25

35

2.Machines for fill-

 

 

 

 

 

ing beverages and

 

 

 

 

 

liquid foods

35

45

 

 

 

 

3. Cement packing

 

 

 

 

 

machines

35

45

 

 

 

 

4.Others

25

35

84.33

Paper of paperboard

 

 

Paper or parperboard

 

 

cutting machines of

 

 

cutting machines of

 

 

all kinds; other

 

 

all kinds; other

 

 

machinery for making

 

 

machinery fro making

 

 

paper pulp, paper or

 

 

paper pule, paper or

 

 

paperboard

20

30

paperboard

 

 

 

 

 

1.Paper or

 

 

 

 

 

paperboard cutting

 

 

 

 

 

mahines of all kinds

40

50


568 posted on 01/03/2006 2:35:39 PM PST by Paul Ross (My idea of American policy toward the Soviet Union is simple...It is this, 'We win and they lose.')
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To: Havoc

Havoc, who is in the treason lobby?


569 posted on 01/03/2006 2:38:42 PM PST by Vision (“We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the duty of intelligent men")
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To: Sunnyflorida

It's wrong, not to mention unkind, to confuse the desire for "fairness" with Marxism. Of course, Marxism promises fairness, but delivers something else entirely.

People in general are told "work hard and prosper." And when they work hard and don't propser, they get a bit cranky. There are literally millions of people who have seen their jobs devalued over a period of years, not even decades. How do you tell a guy who spend a decade running an injection molding machine that his job is now worth 50 cents an hour?

For the record, I've run into quite a few of the hedge fund kids. They crack me up. Most, if not all, are quite bright. However, they tend to lack a certain self-awareness.


570 posted on 01/03/2006 2:45:28 PM PST by durasell (!)
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To: Havoc
Where in the Constitution does it say an American cannot own and operate a business in the global markets? Where does it say I am not allowed to sell overseas and pay a tariff? Where does it say that I MUST pay a tariff on imported goods? What is the "Constitutional" tariff on computers? Cars? Where does it prohibit my right to be a free trader? Please cite for me.

Curious: how would the "free trade" amendment read?
571 posted on 01/03/2006 2:46:28 PM PST by Sunnyflorida
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To: Sunnyflorida

Countries have always protected their markets via tariffs.


572 posted on 01/03/2006 2:49:25 PM PST by durasell (!)
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To: Paul Ross
BTW: That list was supposed to be drastically reduced at the beginning of 2002, but, inexplicably, didn't happen as promised...here is a clip of a late 2002 report from the U.S. embassy in China:

Tariff Reductions.

Under the terms of its WTO accession, China was to reduce tariff rates upon accession. Because China acceded so late in the year (December 11, 2001), it delayed making its scheduled WTO tariff cuts until January 1, 2002, when it implemented two rounds of reductions. The overall average tariff rate fell from over 15 percent to 12 percent, with the average for industrial goods falling to 11.6 percent. Tariff treatment of certain products – including chicken parts and 15 products subject to the Information Technology Agreement (ITA), however, does not appear to fully match China’s WTO commitments. The United States and other WTO members have raised these issues with China and will ensure that China fully implements its tariff commitments.

Over the next three years, China must further reduce the duties charged on imports. China’s elimination of tariffs on the products covered by the ITA (semiconductors and semiconductor manufacturing equipment, computers and computer parts, software, telecommunications equipment and computer-based analytical instruments), which began upon accession, is to be completed by January 1, 2005. Tariffs for U.S. priority agricultural products will fall from an average of 31 percent to 14 percent by January 1, 2004. China’s post-WTO tariff rates are also now “bound,” meaning that China cannot raise them above the bound rates without “compensating” WTO trading partners (i.e., rebalancing tariff concessions or, in accordance with WTO rules, being subject to withdrawal of substantially equivalent concessions by other WTO members). “Bound” rates will give importers a more predictable environment.

WTO accession will have a dramatic effect on tariffs for many products of interest to the United States. Tariffs for some passenger cars, for example, were over 100 percent prior to accession, and will be reduced to 25 percent by 2005. China will also reduce its tariffs on frozen beef cuts to 12 percent, frozen potato products and grapes to 13 percent, on beef and pork offal, cheese, and citrus to 12 percent, and frozen poultry parts, apples, pears, almonds, and pistachios to 10 percent by January 1, 2004. China may also apply tariff rates significantly lower than the published MFN rate in the case of goods that the government has identified as necessary to the development of a key industry. For example, China's Customs Administration has occasionally announced preferential tariff rates for items that benefit key economic sectors, in particular automobiles, steel and chemical products.

China plans to maintain high duties on some products that compete with those of domestic industries. For example, the tariff on large motorcycles will only fall from 60 percent to 45 percent. Likewise, most video, digital video, and audio recorders and players still face duties of around 30 percent.

Tariff classification. Tariff classification remained a problem in 2001. Customs officers have wide discretion in classifying a particular import. Processed food importers report that they had to “negotiate” tariff classification with customs officers at each port. While foreign businesses might at times have benefitted from their ability to negotiate tariff classification into tariff categories with lower import duty rates, lack of uniformity made it difficult to anticipate in advance what the applied duty would be. U.S. exporters of dehydrated potatoes and veneer reported tariff misclassifications resulting in higher duty rates. At the end of 2001, China revised its laws on the import of goods and its regulations for determining origin in order to comply with WTO rules. These new rules attempt to address longstanding problems related to tariff classification.

Import valuation. Valuation of imports has sometimes been an issue for importers. For example, the U.S. wine industry has expressed its concern about certain customs taxes and the application of a minimum invoice value of $2.70 per 750 ml on all imported wine (although other importers claim that this is also often taken as a maximum value for much more expensive bottles). In late 2001, China released new valuation regulations in order to bring its valuation practices into conformity with the WTO Customs Valuation Agreement. Under the regulations, the Customs Administration has been tasked with assessing a fair valuation to all imports. The United States will be monitoring China’s implementation of the Customs Valuation Agreement to ensure that Customs officials do not use minimum or reference prices for valuation purposes.

COMMENT: There are many other such 'competition' exceptions. For example, Fiber-optic bundles. They are currently as of 2005 at 30% for general, and in some specific cases 45%.

573 posted on 01/03/2006 2:52:06 PM PST by Paul Ross (My idea of American policy toward the Soviet Union is simple...It is this, 'We win and they lose.')
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To: Paul Ross
I guess there are free traders that want higher taxes.

Yes, many of them right here on Free Republic.

I don't suppose you can name any of those high tax free traders on Free Republic? I've always been a low tax, low tariff, free trader myself.

574 posted on 01/03/2006 2:55:14 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (The Federal Reserve did not kill JFK. Greenspan was not on the grassy knoll.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
I've always been a low tax...

B'whahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

575 posted on 01/03/2006 2:56:52 PM PST by Paul Ross (My idea of American policy toward the Soviet Union is simple...It is this, 'We win and they lose.')
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To: Paul Ross
Where have I ever espoused higher taxes? Even once? I see you support higher taxes all the time.
576 posted on 01/03/2006 3:06:25 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (The Federal Reserve did not kill JFK. Greenspan was not on the grassy knoll.)
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To: Vision; Havoc
Havoc, who is in the treason lobby?

That is a bit over the top IMHO.

577 posted on 01/03/2006 3:50:08 PM PST by expat_panama
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To: Toddsterpatriot

Add me to your list. I'm also looking for a free-marketeer that's in favor of higher taxes (without corresponding reductions elsewhere). I'd give him a nice cage, and even feed him. I would never think of donating him to science.


578 posted on 01/03/2006 3:52:22 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Vision; Havoc
This is PURE bunk. It is NOT a matter of the "whole world" being caught in some shift..

If there is no shift, Havoc should be able to explain why manufacturing jobs have been disappearing worldwide. Even in China. But a conspiracy is so much more satisfying than the truth. And it doesn't require you to find any facts. Easier.

579 posted on 01/03/2006 3:53:21 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (The Federal Reserve did not kill JFK. Greenspan was not on the grassy knoll.)
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To: 1rudeboy
Add me to your list. I'm also looking for a free-marketeer that's in favor of higher taxes

I'm sure Paul has a big list for us.

580 posted on 01/03/2006 3:54:29 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (The Federal Reserve did not kill JFK. Greenspan was not on the grassy knoll.)
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