Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The question even Darwin avoided
The Sydney Morning Herald ^ | 12/22/05 | Paul Davies

Posted on 12/22/2005 7:15:18 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo

WHEN Charles Darwin published On the Origin of Species in 1859, he gave a convincing account of how life has evolved over billions of years from simple microbes to the complexity of the Earth's biosphere to the present. But he pointedly left out how life got started.

One might as well speculate about the origin of matter, he quipped. Today scientists have a good idea of how matter originated in the Big Bang, but the origin of life remains shrouded in mystery.

Although Darwin refused to be drawn on how life began, he conjectured in a letter to a friend about "a warm little pond" in which various substances would accumulate.

Driven by the energy of sunlight, these chemicals might become increasingly complex, until a living cell formed spontaneously. Darwin's idle speculation became the basis of the "primordial soup" theory of biogenesis, and was adopted by researchers eager to re-create the crucial steps in the laboratory. But this approach hasn't got very far.

The problem is that even the simplest known organism is incredibly complex. Textbooks vaguely describe the pathway from non-living chemicals to primitive life in terms of some unspecified "molecular self-assembly".

The problem lies with 19th-century thinking, when life was regarded as some sort of magic matter, fostering the belief that it could be cooked up in a test tube if only one knew the recipe.

Today many scientists view the living cell as a type of supercomputer - an information-processing and replicating system of extraordinary fidelity. DNA is a database, and a complex encrypted algorithm converts its instructions into molecular products.

(Excerpt) Read more at smh.com.au ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News
KEYWORDS: crevo; crevolist; darwin; intelligentdesign
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 341-360361-380381-400 ... 421 next last
To: NC28203
"But that would not disprove your hypothesis. How do we know whether or not the designer was involved in this event of spontaneously arising life forms? We can't prove that it wasn't, so it is not a testable hypothesis."

Contrarily, it would disprove MY hypothesis because my hypothesis is not a description of the event of creation. A hypothesis can never be made to assert a historical fact and also abide by the generally accepted standard of demarcation. (Although the line is blurred considerably within natural history.) Historical facts can possibly serve as supporting evidence, but repeatable controlled experiments are superior than educated guesses about what might have happened historically.

Compare evolution. Evolution explains why there are millions of varieties of species. It can be observed that breeding also results in the same effect as speciation. However, breeding depends upon the reproductive mechanisms which foster speciation via natural selection. Both are observable. So a statement claiming speciation can only occur by intelligent intervention is falsifiable (within the realm of science) AND has already been falsified. Speciation does occur without intelligent intervention.

On the other hand, no mechanism has ever been observed which indicates life can arise spontaneously. Neither have we been able to create life intelligently. However, my statement is falsifiable and testable

You are correct that it is impossible to falsify the existence of a Creator or of creation as a historical event. But it is a logical fallacy to conclude either creation or a Creator are unscientific. Again, historical facts provide supporting evidence for scientific theories.

My hypothesis is not about a particular Creator or about one specific historical event. Indeed, my proposition would not limit creation to a singular event or describe a particular Creator (or creators). My statement is merely general proposition about a process - the process of life originating from lifeless matter.

Please review it again: due to information complexity and interdependence, no living organism can ever spontaneously arise from lifeless matter which exists in a naturally occurring state, but life can be created.

It is both testable and falsifiable. It qualifies as a hypothesis. I am unaware of any competing hypothesis describing the origin of life.
361 posted on 12/23/2005 12:31:00 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 230 | View Replies]

To: Fester Chugabrew

Processing observations does not require a "code." The observations processed are not "codes." Photons hitting a photoreceptor and being turned into electrical energy are not imparting any "code" to that receptor. Photons hitting a photoreceptor in the eye and being turned into electro-chemical cascades are not utilizing any "code."


362 posted on 12/23/2005 12:43:09 PM PST by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 358 | View Replies]

To: Junior
Photons hitting a photoreceptor and being turned into electrical energy are not imparting any "code" to that receptor.

How do you know?

363 posted on 12/23/2005 12:45:44 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 362 | View Replies]

To: unlearner

>>>due to information complexity and interdependence, no living organism can ever spontaneously arise from lifeless matter which exists in a naturally occurring state. It is both testable and falsifiable.

How do I test it and how would it be falsified?


364 posted on 12/23/2005 12:54:59 PM PST by NC28203
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 361 | View Replies]

To: Fester Chugabrew

Nice spin. I don't have to show the non-existence of a code (that would be trying to prove a negative). I only have to show it is not necessary (which I've done). If you assert such a code (a positive assertion) it is your duty to show evidence for it.


365 posted on 12/23/2005 1:41:35 PM PST by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 363 | View Replies]

To: NC28203
How do I test it and how would it be falsified?

He asserts that it would be falsified if you can demonstrate that non-living matter can become organic life. He will not, however, explain why that would prove that intelligent design could not occur. He simply asserts that if intelligent design did occur then such an event is impossible, without any justification for the claim.

At least, that's what I gathered from him when I asked him about the issue.
366 posted on 12/23/2005 1:43:32 PM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 364 | View Replies]

To: NC28203

As I have stated in earlier threads, the experimentation supporting or disproving my hypothesis are ongoing without regard to my propositions.

Scientists are interested in creating life. If life is ever assembled from lifeless matter, it will support my hypothesis. If, in this attempt, a mechanism is discovered whereby simple life forms self organize within a naturally occurring environment, it will falsify my hypothesis. Of course, it does not necessarily have to happen in a lab, but as an example it could.


367 posted on 12/23/2005 1:51:39 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 364 | View Replies]

To: unlearner

>>>Scientists are interested in creating life. If life is ever assembled from lifeless matter, it will support my hypothesis. If, in this attempt, a mechanism is discovered whereby simple life forms self organize within a naturally occurring environment, it will falsify my hypothesis. Of course, it does not necessarily have to happen in a lab, but as an example it could.

So this is a test of evolution, not ID. If a mechanism is discovered whereby simple life forms self organize within a naturally occurring environment, this does not disprove ID (as the designer could have been behind these mechanuisms), it merely lends support to evolution (actually biogenesis). On the other side, suppose scientists are able to show wiith certainty that this cannot be done. This in no way proves that there must have been a designer to control the process. It merely disproves the theory of abiogenesis.


368 posted on 12/23/2005 2:09:05 PM PST by NC28203
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 367 | View Replies]

To: Junior

How do you read "too much" into the DNA molecule? It carries the blueprint for every protein, and the instructions on how and when they are to be formed. That is one of the most bizarre statements I have ever read on FreeRepublic!


369 posted on 12/23/2005 3:38:12 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 359 | View Replies]

To: ReignOfError
It is trivial to scientifically prove that the world was not created yesterday. There is abundant evidence that the Earth has existed for billions of years, civilization has existed for thousands, and I have existed for 35. There is no evidence to support the hypothesis that the world was created yesterday. Case closed.

The evidence to which you refer cannot be evidence for the things you claim it to be evidence for, since the very same evidence would be present if everything you said was false and the world was created yesterday.

-A8

370 posted on 12/23/2005 3:55:58 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 344 | View Replies]

To: LiteKeeper

It is simply a string of chemicals that has, over time through the process of selection, evolved to produce the necessary proteins required of the co-evolving organism. There is nothing magical about the process, nor is there any "code" involved. It's simply chemicals and their affinities for one-another.


371 posted on 12/23/2005 4:02:20 PM PST by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 369 | View Replies]

To: Junior
We have a winner! OSTRICH AWARD for blindness.

You have got to be kidding!

Strings of amino acids, 100 to 400 molecules long, are formed not just once, but over and over again, based on the sequence of nucleotides in the DNA. That doesn't happen by CHANCE.

Go back to the biology books. Noone disputes the essential role of DNA in the formation of the building blocks of life.

372 posted on 12/23/2005 4:13:38 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 371 | View Replies]

To: Dimensio; unlearner
On another thread, he is asserting that he can test his favored hypothesis, the assertion that there is no scenario for an unguided start of life. I'm saying that this is an example of a thing potentially falsifiable but not particularly supportable. As I might have come to expect by now, I'm not getting good answers on how you positively establish such a sweeping negative.
373 posted on 12/23/2005 4:19:43 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 366 | View Replies]

To: LiteKeeper

No one said it happened by chance. I did say it was the result of the process of evolution selecting the appropriate proteins. There is nothing magic about this, regardless of your desire to see it that way.


374 posted on 12/23/2005 4:22:06 PM PST by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 372 | View Replies]

To: Junior
Noone claimed "magic." The word "selecting" implies some kind of end or purpose. And how is what is "appropriate" determined? And where did the starting sequence come from? There had to be enough "instructions" to make the replication process happen. There are just too many variables you have not accounted for.

Evolution can't "select" anything...and your process is nothing but chance.

375 posted on 12/23/2005 4:27:52 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 374 | View Replies]

To: LiteKeeper
Noone claimed "magic."

Peter Noone, of Herman's Hermits? "Selecting" does not imply anything other than the best fit for current conditions (anything else is a creationist strawman). As for the "starting sequence," it did not spring full blown as Athena from Zeus's head (as some creationists evidently postulate). It evolved as a successful self-replicating molecule. It needn't have started at its current length; it could have started with only a few nucleotides in the pre-biotic environment and bootstrapped from there.

If you postulate an intelligent designer, you need to show evidence of such. I do not need to disprove your assertions, I simply need to show such an entity is not necessary.

376 posted on 12/23/2005 5:03:35 PM PST by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 375 | View Replies]

To: Junior

Showing evidence for something is a far cry from proving its necessity. The evidence for code in physical matter resides in the capacity for human intellect to apprehend its existence.


377 posted on 12/23/2005 6:12:24 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 365 | View Replies]

To: Junior
it did not spring full blown as Athena from Zeus's head (as some creationists evidently postulate). It evolved as a successful self-replicating molecule.

You have evidence of this, where?

If you postulate an intelligent designer, you need to show evidence of such. I do not need to disprove your assertions, I simply need to show such an entity is not necessary.

There is information, despite your unwillingness to acknowledge same, in the DNA. You have not shown, by any stretch of the imagination, that the "entity" is not necessary. There are certain minimums for life, and replication...and they are quite complex. You are, in essence, attributing the "original state" to some sort of "black box" status. And evolution is clueless in trying to explain it.

378 posted on 12/23/2005 7:39:46 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 376 | View Replies]

To: adiaireton8
The evidence to which you refer cannot be evidence for the things you claim it to be evidence for, since the very same evidence would be present if everything you said was false and the world was created yesterday.

There is no available evidence that the world was created yesterday. Science's interest ends there.

379 posted on 12/23/2005 8:58:02 PM PST by ReignOfError
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 370 | View Replies]

To: ReignOfError
There is abundant evidence that the Earth has existed for billions of years

Apparently, you do not realize that this scientific evidence to which you refer is equally compatible with an infinite number of possibilities: the world was created yesterday, the world was created two days ago, etc. Positivistic science cannot prove which one of those possibilities was actual. If you say that there is no evidence that the world was created yesterday, you are saying that among all the infinite possibilities compatible with the evidence, the evidence does not point to yesterday any more than it points to any other time in the past.

-A8

380 posted on 12/23/2005 11:29:33 PM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 379 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 341-360361-380381-400 ... 421 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson