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4 GOP Senators Hold Firm Against Patriot Act Renewal
Washington Post ^ | Charles Babington | Charles Babington

Posted on 12/20/2005 6:58:23 PM PST by ncountylee

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) could barely conceal his anger.

"The Patriot Act expires on December 31, but the terrorist threat does not," he told reporters at the Capitol yesterday. "Those on the Senate floor who are filibustering the Patriot Act are killing the Patriot Act."

There was just one problem. Well, four problems, actually. Four of the 46 senators using the delaying tactic to thwart the USA Patriot Act renewal are members of Frist's party. It is a pesky, irritating fact for Republicans who are eager to portray the impasse as Democratic obstructionism, and a ready-made rejoinder for Democrats expecting campaign attacks on the issue in 2006 and 2008.

The four Republican rebels -- Larry E. Craig (Idaho), Chuck Hagel (Neb.), John E. Sununu (N.H.) and Lisa Murkowski (Alaska) -- have joined all but two Senate Democrats in arguing that more civil liberties safeguards need to be added to the proposed renewal of the Patriot Act.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; Politics/Elections; US: Alabama; US: Idaho; US: Nebraska; US: New Hampshire; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 109th; civiliberties; craig; gop; gwot; hagel; larrycraig; murkowski; nationalsecurity; obstructionistdems; patriotact; sununu; terrorism; wot
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To: DoughtyOne

I don't think we'll open ourselves to an attack if we force the Government to follow the letter of the law. However, I do think that quicker turn around on warrant requests are justified but there must be a judicially signed warrant. I cannot accept any excuse to allow an exemption for that in any case.

Here is how this mess gets defused. 1. Restore our Constitutional rights completely. 2. The Government must stop viewing the citizens as the enemy and not to be trusted... if they don't, they may end up finding out that they made the enemy themselves. 3. The Government must stop acting like a spoiled brat wanting all the power. For God's sake, you have people willing to patrol the border. Quit calling them vigilantes and accept their help with the grace and dignity of a unified front. 4. Allow civilian oversite of the Government's activities by citizens not affiliated with the government. Have a system similar to the jury duty system if there is a lack of volunteers.

As a unified front, we can stop the terrorists. This cloak and dagger crap is doing exactly what the terrorists want to accomplish. The Patriot Act gave the terrorists a major win. They curbed our freedoms. That is what their beef with us is about... and that is it.

Mike


421 posted on 12/21/2005 10:43:29 AM PST by BCR #226
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To: nopardons; ThoreauHD; calcowgirl
I'm one of the few siding with Senator Craig from Idaho and if that makes me a "fool," so be it. If Helen Chenowith had remained in politics and was a Senator from Idaho today, she too would be taking the same stand I believe. She and her husband Wayne Hage suffered through eight years of the Clintons and their REAL abuses of power!!! In fact many of the people of ID and other western states have many HUGE reasons to totally distrust the Federal Government just as strongly as the indians!!!

I know it's not a popular position as even my friend Rush* (SEE PS BELOW THEN GIT BACK HERE AND READ THE REST OF THIS, HEAR?) is taking the popular side and asking for even one example of abuse during the Bush administration. Of course I don't believe there will be one case of abuse either, but like Senator Craig and his constituents around Ruby Ridge, Waco, OKC bombings and Elian Gonzales, etc., etc., etc...

I truly believe in being a consistent conservative. Besides, Frist and the dumb Bush administration with their "new tone in Washington," can't even get an affirmative vote on ANWR!!! And they wanna blame four supposedly stubborn/stupid Republicans???

My shallow, thoughtless self doesn't like the position I've taken on the side of consistent considerate conservatism, but until Carl Rove can get 60 REAL Republican Senators... They and the mob here on FR oughta just take a long slow read for comprehension of Reply #288, below, by ThoreauHD!!!

Sorry it took so long to get back to you... I had to sleep on it as a tired old Conservative. I'm sorry if you had friends or relatives or loved ones in the WTC but I still want to have a response to that old quote from one of our founders about those seeking security at the expense of liberty deserving neither!!!

Could you reply to that?

*PS... Dang you! Craig called in to Rush and I was all busy with this response to you and MISSED THE WHOLE DEBATE!!!

422 posted on 12/21/2005 11:43:07 AM PST by SierraWasp (The CAGOP is now ruled in secret by the SS!!! Sundheim & SchwartzenRenegger!!! Oh! & the Kennedys!!!)
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To: BCR #226

I don't think we'll open ourselves to an attack if we force the Government to follow the letter of the law.

FYI, the Patriot Act is currently law.


423 posted on 12/21/2005 12:06:05 PM PST by DoughtyOne (MSM: Public support for war waining. 403/3 House vote against pullout vaporizes another lie.)
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To: ThoreauHD

I was so busy last night fending off personal attacks for daring to present a challenge to the PA (as requested btw), that I failed to give the attention that your post 288 deserved.

excellent post


424 posted on 12/21/2005 12:58:51 PM PST by takenoprisoner
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To: Despot of the Delta

"The biggest question of the PA that needs answering, who wrote it and why?"

I'd wager that Chertoff had much to do with it...why? Because he needed a top level positon and now he's got one.


425 posted on 12/21/2005 1:02:39 PM PST by takenoprisoner
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To: azhenfud
It does NOT mean all those prior conditions must have been met, but any - else there would be a conjunctive "and" preceding the next condition instead of a semicolon.

Incorrect.

Commas are used similar to semicolons when listing except semicolons are used when using complete sentences to list.

A,B, and C

is equivalent to,

AAAA; BBBB; and CCCC.

426 posted on 12/21/2005 1:46:38 PM PST by FreeReign
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To: BCR #226
I've written this to this thread already, but since you missed that post and know NOTHING about the facts therein, you very badly need to be apprised of salient facts beyond your ken.

American has AMERICAN CITIZENS, BORN RIGHT HERE, who are IslamoNazis. Because of the Patriot Act, 16 men in upstate New York, were caught and prevented from carrying out ant acts of terror. One or two were naturalized citizens, who had come here as small children, the rest of them were second and third third generation American citizens.

I have no idea how long Johnny Jihad Lindh's family has been in America, but the certainly weren't recent additions.

Padillia is also an American born citizen.

The NSA thing is not "spying on American citizens" per se and they listened in on the calls, on the side OUTSIDE of America.

Clinton and his crew ignored those responsible for the first bombing of the WTCF and thought that it all should be treated as a local POLICE matter! That was probably THE worst thing that they could have done and led directly to 9/11 !

You're worrying about the government listening in to American citizens? President Bush and his team have ONLY spied on terrorists! Herbert Hoover spied on lots of American citizens, for DECADES and the Clintons did far worse, WITHOUT the PA! Worrying about what Hillary would do, if she were president ( which I doubt very much, she will EVER be !), is patently ridiculous! She will do anything and everything she damned well pleases and the MSM won't say a word about it and neither will either House.

Anyone who wants to cherry-pick the words of the FFs, to make their position on what they would so or say today, is living in an hallucinatory world of Miss Cleo. The FFs had less than no idea about how the world would evolve and something like 9/11 was beyond anything any of them could or did imagine. And so, to guess at what any of them would have to say about it and present day America, vis-a-vis the WoT, is patently ridiculous!

There is nothing even remotely Constitutional, you who are just ohhhhhhh soooooooooooo Constitutionally concerned, that would allow citizens to have a committee to watch over the government! The FFs, who thought that the average man was far too stupid to wisely elect a president, set the Electoral College in place for that reason and they didn't even think that the EC would be good enough to ensure that a wise and good president would be set in place. No, what they thought would and should happen, was that the EC would be in a tie and then, the House would actually break that tie and therefore elect the president.

And you know what? Most of the populace IS as STUPID as the FFs thought they were. And yes, the FFs WERE a pack of elitists!

When the PA isn't renewed, guess what? GORELICK'S WALL RETURNS IN FULL FORCE!

"As a unified force we can stop the terrorist.", you claimed. YOU'RE OUT OF YOUR MIND! What do you propose "we" do...go shoot every Muslim, including the black NOI ones? How about concentration camps for every Muslim? You gonna tap phones too? UNDER WHAT LAW ?

You think ( and I use that word loosely !) that the PA gave the terrorists what they wanted? ROTFLMSO

427 posted on 12/21/2005 3:15:53 PM PST by nopardons
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To: SierraWasp

I heard Craig on Rush. He said that he was "afraid of what Hillary would do as president, with the PA in place, when she is president. The man is an idiot! Bill Clinton bugged Aldrich Ames' house, without the PA and on American spoil. He didn't get a court order. The Clintons don't give a damn about anything and do what they want to, no matter what/law or no law, court order/or none. And it is NOT written in stone, that Hillary will ever be president!


428 posted on 12/21/2005 3:19:50 PM PST by nopardons
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To: takenoprisoner

Nah the Bush Adiminstration didn't write up a 300 page PA in 30 days. This was put together during the Clinton Adminstration.


429 posted on 12/21/2005 3:26:51 PM PST by Despot of the Delta
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To: nopardons

I'm going to address one thing and one thing only in your post since the rest is a repeat of much that I've heard...

You say to imagine Hillary in office... that is EXACTLY why I am concerned about the PA. What if, in the infinite lack of wisdom she has, she decides to label Freepers, gun owners, and Right to Lifers as terrorists? Do you want to be on the receiving end of warrantless searches and eavesdropping simply because you post here or you support conservative values? Here's the problem with the Patriot Act... it is very much like the type of laws passed in Germany in the mid and late 30's. Those laws could have been passed with good intentions but they were abused greatly. I would prefer that such abuse not happen here.

Any action that the US has taken to prevent a strike here in the US could have taken place within the confines of Constitutional law. In other words they could have gotten warrants. This cloak and dagger garbage reeks of Soviet era communist activity.

Mike


430 posted on 12/21/2005 3:40:01 PM PST by BCR #226
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To: BCR #226
You say to imagine Hillary in office... that is EXACTLY why I am concerned about the PA. What if, in the infinite lack of wisdom she has, she decides to label Freepers, gun owners, and Right to Lifers as terrorists?

The Patriot act doesn't label Freepers, gun owners and Right to Lifers as terrorists.

If Hillary were to name Freepers, gun owner and Right to Lifers as terrorists, she would be doing it outside the law.

431 posted on 12/21/2005 4:15:10 PM PST by FreeReign
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To: BCR #226
Any action that the US has taken to prevent a strike here in the US could have taken place within the confines of Constitutional law.

Please cite the section, title and passage in the Patriot Act that violates the Constitution and then explain in your own words why you think that it does.

432 posted on 12/21/2005 4:17:56 PM PST by FreeReign
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Comment #433 Removed by Moderator

To: Uncle Vlad
Yes, Hagel is a sorry RINO, but we have Pelosi, Boxer and Feinstine...out here....real stinkers....

Hagel needs to go....hope it can happen.

I have no idea how we can clean up the trash out here.,

434 posted on 12/21/2005 4:20:33 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (History is soon Forgotten,)
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To: Despot of the Delta

I read an article that said a fellow named Viet Dinh was the main author.


435 posted on 12/21/2005 4:38:10 PM PST by takenoprisoner
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http://www.usdoj.gov/olp/vietdinh.htm


436 posted on 12/21/2005 4:42:32 PM PST by takenoprisoner
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To: BCR #226
No; that is exactly what I did NOT say!

What I said is 1) that I do NOT think that she will EVER be president 2) that even IF she were, she wouldn't need the Patriot Act, nor any other Bill, Act, or Law to do what she damned please. Bill Clinton did exactly what he damned well pleased, WITHOUT any law/Bill/or Act to back him up and anyone, ANYONE AT ALL, who uses Hillary as an excuse, to not pass the PA, is a weasel, a coward, and just looking for an excuse to cover his/her own rear end.

Bill not only sent a poor, innocent couple to jail, but set the FBI and the IRA on them, for just saying "you stink", when he and Hill were in Chicago, at Taste of Chicago. Then, there's they Elian mess, Wacko, and on and on and on...ALL WITHOUT any Bill, Law, or Act! Bill wire tapped Aldrich Ames, with NO court order, on American soil and he is an American citizen!

Here's the problem with you........you have less than no idea what you're talking about! The Patriot Act bears no resemblance, whatsoever, to Hitlerian "laws", passed in Nazi Germany! And because you were the first to cry " N AZI", by net rules, YOU LOSE!

Neither do you have any idea at all, that we, like the Russians and the Brits and the Chinese and other nations, have employed spies and "cloak and dagger" operations, for the past several hundreds of years!

Why do you suppose that "SPY" stories have been captivating readers for 100s of years? BECAUSE SPIES HAVE ALWAYS EXISTED, THAT'S WHY. What the bloody hell do you think that the Dreyfus case was all about? Ever hear of Mata Hari? Long before James Bond, Lanny Budd held sway and before him, there were other books detailing the adventures of spies and covert agents!

The damned Dems don't care that without the Patriot Act, the president's hands are tied; they WANT him to fail.

The supposed "conservatives", who are willfully afraid of the PA, as well as their own shadows, don't live anywhere near where a major terrorist blow will hit and they are truly scared to death of some future nightmare Dem. They just aren't brave enough to stand up against anything or anyone. And those who perpetually whinge and whine about their "rights" and "liberties", haven't lost any of them at all.

You have NO idea what the government has used to prevent terrorist hits, since 9/11; NONE! So don't you dare to tell me and everyone else, that what was done, could have been done some other way. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!

437 posted on 12/21/2005 5:00:26 PM PST by nopardons
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To: BCR #226

good post mike. Get warrants and get the bastards while leaving our fought and died for liberties secure.

We didnt need the PA when Japan attacked us although there were many Japanese in America. We didnt need the PA when the british attacked us although there were many british in America.

Sure, some might say but oh we did the Japanese Americans so wrong by watching them and placing some of them in camps. Well folks, that's war and it was the Japanese who attacked us.

On 911 it was the Saudi muslims who attacked us. And the first thing that happened after that attack was that all planes were grounded. Well, except one. Seems some elite Saudis (related to guess who) were immediately flown out of America back to Saudi. Go figure.

Then shortly began the process to take away our God given liberties in the form of a congressional act. The act, titled the PA, was written by a guy from Vietnam who immigrated here from nam. He contends that he hates communists.

go figure


438 posted on 12/21/2005 5:09:31 PM PST by takenoprisoner
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To: nopardons

"You have NO idea what the government has used to prevent terrorist hits,"

I know what they havent used. Saudis and muslims are still welcomed here inspite of the fact that saudi muslims attacked us on 911.


439 posted on 12/21/2005 5:32:11 PM PST by takenoprisoner
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To: takenoprisoner
But it's not as easy for Saudis to come here, as it once was.

And since it wasn't Saudi immigrants in England and France and Indonesia and Russia and Holland and Denmark, who committ acts of terrorism, you really need to rethink your singling out just one country. After all, the show bomber was an English citizen, with one black and one white parent and he flew out of France! ;^)

440 posted on 12/21/2005 5:46:44 PM PST by nopardons
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