Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Law Professor Crosses Evolution Battle Lines: Conservative leader sides with ACLU
The Fulton County Daily Report (via Law.com) ^ | 12-15-2005 | Greg Land

Posted on 12/15/2005 9:12:43 AM PST by Lurking Libertarian

The fight over how public schools should teach the theory of evolution is usually expected to fall along familiar battle lines.

Thus, at the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals today, lawyers for the liberal American Civil Liberties Union will argue that school board members from conservative Cobb County violated the Constitution when they ordered that stickers questioning evolution's validity be placed in high school biology books.

But this case defies simple labels for Georgia State University law professor L. Lynn Hogue, who has led the conservative Southeastern Legal Foundation, worked for the disbarment of President Clinton and proposed a Georgia law that would allow the display of the Ten Commandments in government buildings.

Hogue signed on to an amicus brief filed on behalf of Georgia Citizens for Integrity in Science Education, which supports the ACLU side of the case.

"I'm sympathetic with their cause," said Hogue, who also has pushed for gay marriage bans, fought Atlanta's domestic partnership ordinance and battled the University of Georgia's affirmative action program.

"From my perspective as a conservative, I think science education is important," he added. "And I'm not religiously sympathetic to anti-evolutionists, who I think are lunatics."

(Excerpt) Read more at law.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; US: Georgia
KEYWORDS: 11thcircuit; aclu; creationism; crevolist; darwin; evolution; intelligentdesign
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120121-122 next last
To: trisham
My point is that thus far no one has been able to answer those questions in a logically consistent fashion. I have seen some "falsification" criteria, but they don't seem to be based upon the theory itself; that is, the person asserts that events are impossible, but never explains why the events are logically impossible of the theory is true. Specifically, I have been told that observing non-living collections of organic compounds becoming life would falsify creationism, but absolutely no explanation was given as to why creationism being true would logically mean that organic compounds cannot form into life.

Without so much as a justifiable falsification criteria, then neither ID nor Creationism are actually "theories".
81 posted on 12/15/2005 1:29:46 PM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: Stultis
It seems to me that Goessling's position is contradictory. She also said, "It appears that, on a daily basis, we're bombarded with attacks on Christian expression."

Agreed. Goessling's position is contradictory, and also completely disingenuous. To state that she's in favor of the stickers because of "attacks on Christian expression" is ridiculous, considering the stickers were the idea of creationists/IDers to begin with. Seems as though it was "Christian expression" that threw the first punch.

82 posted on 12/15/2005 1:32:45 PM PST by Chiapet (Two eyebrows are always better than one.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: wallcrawlr
Executive Director Shannon L. Goessling, who succeeded Hogue in September 2004, spoke highly of her predecessor but is in favor of returning the stickers to the textbooks.

"It appears that, on a daily basis, we're bombarded with attacks on Christian expression," she said.

But... but... but... I thought that the stickers weren't about "Christian expression" at all! At least that is what the ID people keep saying. Could it be that they are not being honest about their intentions?

83 posted on 12/15/2005 1:34:46 PM PST by wyattearp (The best weapon to have in a gunfight is a shotgun - preferably from ambush.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: wyattearp
But... but... but... I thought that the stickers weren't about "Christian expression" at all! At least that is what the ID people keep saying. Could it be that they are not being honest about their intentions?

Are you honestly trying to suggest that an antievolutionist might actually lie?
84 posted on 12/15/2005 1:35:40 PM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 83 | View Replies]

To: Dimensio

Are you honestly trying to suggest that an antievolutionist might actually lie?

Not lie, of course not. The just tend to be pathological misspeakers (for God).

85 posted on 12/15/2005 1:39:43 PM PST by ml1954 (NOT the disruptive troll seen frequently on CREVO threads)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: trisham
Not exactly. Her words are: "This is a case allowing competing theories to be taught. ..."

Waddaya mean it's "not exactly" about scientific theories when she says "competing theories"? These stickers are going on SCIENCE textbooks, not math or home economics texts!

Bottom line, first she says it's about religion, then she says it has nothing to do with religion.

86 posted on 12/15/2005 1:40:51 PM PST by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: Dimensio
Perish the thought! I can't imagine how a christian anti-evolutionist could possibly justify outright lying in order to try to prove a point.

/major league sarcasm

87 posted on 12/15/2005 1:45:31 PM PST by wyattearp (The best weapon to have in a gunfight is a shotgun - preferably from ambush.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: Dimensio

This is what I find so outrageous about those who want ID taught as science...they 'claim', this is not about pushing Christianity in the classroom....and now, just who do they think they are kidding?...I know that there are some ID supporters who just want a generic type of designer brought into the discussion, but by and large, most of those that I have seen who want ID taught really want the Christian God designated as the designer...I guess they figure if they can get a 'generic designer' slid into the discussion, in time, they can change that to be the 'Christian Designer'...

If it should happen that the designer was going to be designated as an Alien from some as yet unknown galaxy, or designated as one of the numerous gods from Native American myths, then the ID people would be hollering about that...

No, as far as I can tell, ID is nothing but an attempt to insert the Christian God into a science class...and when IDers deny this, I am not kind enough to merely think of this as 'misspeaking'...this is lying...


88 posted on 12/15/2005 1:47:36 PM PST by andysandmikesmom
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: Lurking Libertarian
"From my perspective as a conservative, I think science education is important," he added. "And I'm not religiously sympathetic to anti-evolutionists, who I think are lunatics."

This guy isn't me, but he could be.

89 posted on 12/15/2005 1:53:02 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PatrickHenry
"(Gasp!) My professors lied to me!"

"Janet, it's evolution or Jesus, what is your choice?"

Nobody writes dialogue like Jack Chick. Which is a good thing, really.

90 posted on 12/15/2005 2:07:44 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: Dimensio
My point is that thus far no one has been able to answer those questions in a logically consistent fashion. I have seen some "falsification" criteria, but they don't seem to be based upon the theory itself; that is, the person asserts that events are impossible, but never explains why the events are logically impossible of the theory is true. Specifically, I have been told that observing non-living collections of organic compounds becoming life would falsify creationism, but absolutely no explanation was given as to why creationism being true would logically mean that organic compounds cannot form into life.

Without so much as a justifiable falsification criteria, then neither ID nor Creationism are actually "theories".

******************

Am I correct in assuming that you believe in God and evolution? We seem on these threads to be a diverse group with regard to our beliefs. Those who believe in ID only, those who believe in Creationism, those who believe in God and evolution, and those who do not believe in God, but in evolution.

I'm not completely sure in which camp I am. I find these threads interesting and was drawn to them by a poster who spoke of God in a way that was inspiring to me. As may be quite clear to you, I am no scientist.

Back to your statement disputing ID or Creationism as "theories". While I see your point that they may not yet meet the scientific standard for theories, I do question the absence of curiousity and what seems to me to be antagonism on the part of the scientific community.

91 posted on 12/15/2005 2:10:55 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: trisham
Am I correct in assuming that you believe in God and evolution?

I am an atheist. My quarrel here is not with theists, or even strict creationists, but with creationists who seek to falsely claim to have an "alternative" scientific theory (as opposed to a belief) that fails to meet the criteria of science or who seek to discredit evolution through lies and misinformation.
92 posted on 12/15/2005 2:17:45 PM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 91 | View Replies]

To: Dimensio
I am an atheist. My quarrel here is not with theists, or even strict creationists, but with creationists who seek to falsely claim to have an "alternative" scientific theory (as opposed to a belief) that fails to meet the criteria of science or who seek to discredit evolution through lies and misinformation.

*************

I see. I apologize for my assumption.

I have no alternative scientific theory, but I do have belief. I am here because of that belief, and to learn from both sides.

93 posted on 12/15/2005 2:21:26 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]

To: andysandmikesmom
Well, that was the first time I have really looked at any of Jack Chicks 'funnies'....I notice on the Noahs Flood comic strip, he has the young land dinosaurs entering the ark...first time I ever heard of dinosaurs entering the ark...I have heard some folks, 'acquaintances' of mine, tell me that dinosaurs never did exist in the first place...that all the dinosaur bones that are found, were really planted by the devil, to deceive man...(of course, I imagine not many people put forth this particular idea, but still, its one I have heard)....

But dinosaurs, living side by side with Noah, and then entering the ark to be saved from the flood, is a new one on me...

I don't know that I've heard that one, either.

I've heard "The dinosaurs were killed by the flood when Noah didn't take them on the ark." More commonly, I've heard that dinosaurs lived in the Garden of Eden (and were all vegetarians!) until the Fall, when Eve's sin cast them out into the world of death and they started eating each other. But still, that would probably put them extinct before the Flood.

I've also heard "The Devil put those bones there to trick us." But I don't take that one very seriously - how can you possibly debate with someone who has such an interesting perspective on reality?

94 posted on 12/15/2005 2:28:01 PM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: trisham

You wrote: "I have no alternative scientific theory, but I do have belief. I am here because of that belief, and to learn from both sides."

Reply:
Is there an "American Judeo-Christian" verity about these questions? Not at all. Muslims devoted to the Qu'ran equally reject evolution. The preference for faith-based government, and missionarism for one particular view, crosses all boundaries. In all times, priests/pastors/mullahs/monks have tried to capture the power of government to promote their own agendas.

But the issue about 'intelligent design' is not just a matter of personal belief. It is a question of public policy. Is 'intelligent design' a good idea to promote? Or does it repress scientific, human inquiry? I recently tutored a student in chemistry, and there are complex ideas about molecular orbitals, but I think the important point is that there are complex ideas, and we can't ignore them by saying "God did it."

Personal belief in astrology is neither a good basis for international relations nor for family finances. Public displays of religiosity/piety are about power, not about spiritualness or social responsibility.

Personal beliefs and good public policy are not the same.


95 posted on 12/15/2005 2:29:32 PM PST by thomaswest (Just Curious)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]

To: thomaswest
But the issue about 'intelligent design' is not just a matter of personal belief. It is a question of public policy. Is 'intelligent design' a good idea to promote? Or does it repress scientific, human inquiry? I recently tutored a student in chemistry, and there are complex ideas about molecular orbitals, but I think the important point is that there are complex ideas, and we can't ignore them by saying "God did it."

*************

I don't believe (that pesky word again) that ID or Creationism must or should repress scientific inquiry. It appears that this is a concern of the scientific community, which seems based at least in part on historical events.

"God did it". Yes, God did. That doesn't mean that we should be intellectually lazy or dishonest, imho. God also gave us brains, which means to me that He intends us to use them.

Repression is not my goal,of either the scientific or religious communities.

96 posted on 12/15/2005 2:41:52 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies]

To: Lurking Libertarian

'Twas the night the Enlightenment came to Georgia.


97 posted on 12/15/2005 2:43:23 PM PST by gcruse (http://gcruse.typepad.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: trisham
I have no alternative scientific theory, but I do have belief. I am here because of that belief, and to learn from both sides.

The problem is that the "two sides" of this issue aren't whether one accepts evolution or theistic creationism, but whether one views the world through logic and evidence or through feelings and hope.

It is possible to join these two "sides", as the Catholic church has done, and declare basically that God created the science, and by definition science and God cannot contradict one another. This means they have to interpret Genesis rather loosely, which is a problem for many modern fundamentalists who have been taught that the Bible is literally true. But the advantage is that they only have to bend their reading of the Bible, vs. Biblical literalists which have to bend any rational view of reality itself.

98 posted on 12/15/2005 2:52:09 PM PST by narby (Hillary! The Wicked Witch of the Left)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]

Newspeak redefinition placemarker


99 posted on 12/15/2005 2:58:05 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (so natural to mankind is intolerance in whatever they really care about - J S Mill)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: trisham

Actually, this entire thread may be an exercise in futility, as the Clintonoid judge who ordered the stickers removed may be about to be slapped down:


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1541171/posts


100 posted on 12/15/2005 3:08:03 PM PST by puroresu (Conservatism is an observation; Liberalism is an ideology)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120121-122 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson