Posted on 12/13/2005 8:34:28 PM PST by tbird5
The renowned biologist talks about intelligent design, dishonest Christians, and why God is no better than an imaginary friend.
British biologist Richard Dawkins has made a name for himself defending evolution and fighting what he sees as religiously motivated attacks on science. Dr. Dawkins sat down with Beliefnet at the World Congress of Secular Humanism, where his keynote address focused on intelligent design.
You're concerned about the state of education, especially science education. If you were able to teach every person, what would you want people to believe?
I would want them to believe whatever evidence leads them to; I would want them to look at the evidence, judge it on its merits, not accept things because of internal revelation or faith, but purely on the basis of evidence.
Not everybody can evaluate all evidence; we can’t evaluate the evidence for quantum physics. So it does have to be a certain amount of taking things on trust. I have to take what physicists say on trust, for example, because I'm a biologist. But science [has] a system of appraisal, of peer review, so that I trust the physics community to get their act together in a way that I know from the inside. I wish people would put their trust in evidence, not in faith, revelation, tradition, or authority.
(Excerpt) Read more at beliefnet.com ...
If your doubts are born out and Jesus of Nazareth was an inveterate liar when he said all that stuff about the disposition of our souls, the way to paradise being through him, etc. your time's probably better spent attending to the more practical and immediate concerns. If, on the other hand, HE was telling the truth, you should have no more immediate or practical concern....#8-)
Hope you enjoyed the movie!!
Pascal's Wager, or a form of it. It's mitigated by the fact that the Christian God (again assuming he exists) is by definition a God of love.
Or, to put it another way, the person who embraces faith to the extent he can but is still plagued by honest doubts has ver little to nothing to fear from a God of love.
C S Lewis, in fact, put it stronger than that: Trumpkin the dwarf flat-out doesn't believe in Aslan. He is, in modern terminology, an atheist. Yet he is an honest one. And when he finally meets Aslan face to face, Aslan accepts him (see Prince Caspian).
I agree. It often seems rather difficult to me to reconcile the doctrine of a God of love with certain portions of popular Christian theology.
While we're talking C S Lewis and the Chronicles of Narnia (I JUST NOW got back from seeing The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe by the way and it is REALLY GOOD -- GO, and take your whole family or at least those above age 10 or so), Lewis dealt with the issue in this way:
The Calormenes are obviously representative of Muslims. (As an aside, it's fascinating that although Lewis wrote The Last Battle in the mid-50s, approaching the height of the nuclear-plagued Cold War with atheist Marxism, he characterized the final battle as being between radical Islam and Christendom).
One of the Musl.., er, Calormenes (the only noble one in the story) has done his very best to sincerely serve Tash all of his life. Yet when he meets Aslan, Aslan tells him that he was really searching for him (Aslan), and that all of the service to the god whose name he knew (Tash), because of how it was done, is counted as service to Aslan. And that similarly, even if someone says they are serving Aslan, but they do evil, it is really (Tash) whom they serve.
The Bible says Jesus is the only way. It says men die and then are judged. It never specifically says that if you never hear the name of Christ (or hear it badly) during your life, you can't be saved.
Paul seems to imply this, but again, it's not stated. Nor does it make sense, in my opinion, against verses that clearly portray God as being = to love.
Incidentally, Lewis also portrays the final Judgment thusly: all of the creatures of Narnia pass before Aslan; and all have to look into his face. Some of them love Aslan, and are gathered with him. Others look at him with hate, and pass into his shadow. Lewis says, "I don't know what became of them."
But again, I don't recall any specific claim that those who loved Aslan had necessarily met him before. (See also what I noted about Trumpkin the dwarf).
Oh, and YES. I DID enjoy the movie!
I think it's really well done. Not perfect, but very well done.
Just a tiny bit of editing could've removed the most obvious flaws (sigh).
The opening was fabulous but the jump to the next scene was too abrupt.
I applaud their not using "absolutely cosmetically perfect" actors (although the kids were nice looking and Peter was DEFINITELY a good-looking kid). However, in one scene they should've edited the gaps between Lucy's teeth a bit as they were distracting.
At least they didn't use an actress who was outright buck-toothed like the Lucy in the old BBC production...
Oh, and what the heck was that dead bird thing on the witch's shoulder? They just about fouled up one of the most critical scenes of the entire film with that.
Without those minor quibbles, I would've given it close to perfect marks. :-)
The reason I referenced Kalam's argument was in response to the poster who stated: However, if the Designer is at least as complex as a person (and this holds true for all conceptions of a personal God), then the same argument holds, and somebody even bigger must have created God.
But I agree that it is different than the argument about complexity.
Are you in the movie business?
I agree that the bombing sequence to the home with the children was startling. It must have been very expensive to create so I wondered why it was needed, although it was interesting juxtoposed to the birds in later battle scenes.
I thought Lucy was just adorable and did a fabulous job of acting despite her young age.
Asan was just fabulous, as well as the faun and centaurs.
No, not in the movie business, just expressing personal taste & things I noticed that were distracting to me personally from the action and story.
I thought the opening was fabulous; it was the jump to the next scene that was disorienting. Too sudden. Great action, and then it just died. Even just a slow fade-in wouldn't probably done the trick.
I liked Lucy too. I think they made a pretty good choice on all of the actors. And Liam Neeson was fabulous as Aslan's voice. they made the right choice there IMO.
My wife and I were just talking about the movie. I'll probably see it again tomorrow with a kid or two, lol. And honestly, I'm eager to see it a second time, which is fairly rare for me with a movie.
The film brought in $67 m last weekend, the 2nd biggest December opening ever. This is just a huge franchise and I've no doubt all 7 films are going to be made, and they're going to be big. I was working out this evening what the producers are going to have to do next. They only need the original cast for 2-1/2 more films of the seven, because The Horse and His Boy and The Magician's Nephew are entirely different casts... and so is The Silver Chair, but there's got to be continuity from Dawn Treader to that one, because Eustace is in Dawn Treader with Edmund & Lucy.
So they'll still have to move fairly quickly and carefully on shooting, because of aging of the cast. Of course Peter Jackson showed it can certainly be done by filming 2 or 3 of the LOTR films simultaneously :-)
Erg.
wouldn't probably done the trick
= "would've probably done the trick"
You know what I mean (rolls eyes)
Likewise.
I was one of those who used to assume that most people thought the same way I did, but this FR has been EXTREMELY valuable to me as I've had to actually say WHAT I believed (and why) many times.
This METHOD of communication makes me want to take LOTS of shortcuts, 'cause it's so SLLlllowww and we manage to talk past one another so often.
I don't know how this'll play out either, but it's enough to STILL cause missionaries of every stripe to continue to "Go ye into all the world,"
Oh heck!
I have doubts about various things ALL the time!
(That's 'cause I don't KNOW, but have to have FAITH.)
Rats!
I'm a nit-picker about movies.
I figure if I can notice a flub, why didn't the producers? (Then again, it may be a forest and tree thing.)
I'll be going to see it, but probably after the holiday rush.
My wife and I had a discussion the other day in which she expressed concern about my lack of faith.
My reply was that I've tried to choose to have faith to whatever degree I could, even when I pretty much didn't believe there even was a God. I don't really know how I could embrace faith too much more than that.
As far as Narnia is concerned, I've just seen it for the second time. I find the things I noted as irritating seem to fade a bit more into the background the second time around. But yes, if I notice these things, why can't the producers/ directors?
I think Newton would wipe the floor with little Dickie Dawkins.
Actually, Newton kept much of his theology hidden, no doubt for fear of the backlash. Among other things, Newton denied that Christ was the actual son of God, and strongly believed that trinitarianism was a false doctrine which was only being upheld because the early Church fathers had corrupted the text of the Bible to support it.
From what Jesus said, it's not how much faith that we have but what our faith is in. He said that even if our faith was like that of a mustard seed, we could do great things. HE is the way and it's our faith in Him that is the way to salvation. John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me." It's WHO we believe and believe in.
You know, it really kind of hacks me off when well-meaning Christians take it upon themselves to lecture me. It's kind of like somebody coming up to you and saying, "Oh, you're a mom? Well here, let me teach you how to diaper your baby. Do you know about using baby powder? Let me tell you all about it."
"And they need to be burped after feeding. Firs, put a cloth on your shoulder, like this. Do you understand that?"
Know what I mean?
NIV Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given youNIV 1 Corinthians 12:7-10
7. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9. to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10. to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
NIV Romans 1:11-12
11. I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong--
12. that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith.NIV Romans 14:1
Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.NIV Luke 17:5
The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"NIV Acts 16:5
So the churches were strengthened in the faith and grew daily in numbers.NIV 2 Corinthians 10:15-16
15. Neither do we go beyond our limits by boasting of work done by others. Our hope is that, as your faith continues to grow, our area of activity among you will greatly expand,
16. so that we can preach the gospel in the regions beyond you.
NIV 2 Thessalonians 1:3
We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing.NIV James 1:2-3
2. Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
3. because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.NIV Acts 14:21-22
21. They preached the good news in that city and won a large number of disciples. Then they returned to Lystra, Iconium and Antioch,
22. strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God," they said.
NIV Luke 22:31-32
But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."
1 Thessalonians 3
1. So when we could stand it no longer, we thought it best to be left by ourselves in Athens.
2. We sent Timothy, who is our brother and God's fellow worker in spreading the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith,
3. so that no one would be unsettled by these trials. You know quite well that we were destined for them.
4. In fact, when we were with you, we kept telling you that we would be persecuted. And it turned out that way, as you well know.
5. For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter might have tempted you and our efforts might have been useless.
6. But Timothy has just now come to us from you and has brought good news about your faith and love. He has told us that you always have pleasant memories of us and that you long to see us, just as we also long to see you.
7. Therefore, brothers, in all our distress and persecution we were encouraged about you because of your faith.
8. For now we really live, since you are standing firm in the Lord.
9. How can we thank God enough for you in return for all the joy we have in the presence of our God because of you?
10. Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking in your faith.
11. Now may our God and Father himself and our Lord Jesus clear the way for us to come to you.
12. May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else, just as ours does for you.
13. May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.NIV Romans 3:3
What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness?
NIV Ephesians 6:13-17
13. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
14. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
15. and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.
16. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.NIV 2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.NIV Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
NIV Romans 10:16-17
16. But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"
17. Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
>groan<
At least with you, I've had an ongoing conversation...
Interesting aside: today I was at church (yes, I go to church, a very evangelical one at that although not what I would call pushy) and picked up a 'spiritual gifts survey' (which I of course went through during the sermon... :-) )
So there were a couple of things that came out at the top for me, and then some that tied for second.
Among the second-level things was "faith."
So, yes, I am rather a complicated person... :-)
Some might even say 'enigmatic' or even 'seemingly self-contradictory...'
But it all makes sense to me... well, sort of, lol. :-)
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