Intelligent design’s long march to nowhere

Science & Theology News ^ | 05 December 2005 | Karl Giberson

[TheGhostOfTomPaine]

Maybe my naivete is extreme, but it seems to me that science would have nothing to research if there was no reason in creation. Isn't that what scientists DO... try to find out how things work? If they kept discovering chaos, they would stop.

Sure, scientists look for patterns and principles that describe the underlying order in what may look superficially like chaos. And many people (the famous Deist from whom I took my screen name, for example) have regarded the existence of such order generally as evidence of a "cosmic architect" or "designer."

But that's not what the ID folks argue. They claim to be able to tell apart two different kinds of order: one that can be explained in terms of the operation of natural law, and one that can't. It's only the latter that they attribute to the operation of intelligence.

As a matter of science, their "argument" founders on the fact that they haven't got any reliable way to tell the two apart or any real program for investigating the matter scientifically.

[Proud_texan]

I didn't suggest going to the general public for science; I'm saying that science has done a very poor job of presenting their case to the general public.

Laying out a theory in a way a lay person can understand it rather than calling them idiots might be a better strategy.

[KeepUSfree]

I never thought of it that way....but ID'ers are the Democrats of Science. No plan, No ideas....just "we hate Darwin" and "It's Darwin's Fault". And, if you don't agree with them....you get called names such as "purile" and be called a "truth nazi".

It all sounds SOOOOOO familiar....

[DaGman]

"The chances of at least 410 amino acids accidentally forming a chain to produce one protein molecule is 10123.
The odds against this happening in at least 239 protein molecules to form the smallest living organism are 1029345.
The odds of that one organism surviving long enough to learn to eat, breathe and reproduce are beyond calculation."

I don't know from where you get your probability calculations, but assuming they are correct, if these processes occured millions and millions of times, one would get 410 amino acids forming a protein molecule fairly quickly and easily. Same with forming the smallest organism.

[Oztrich Boy]

If evols want to continue to insult those they wish to convince by all means, that is certainly the way to go.

Evols realize that Creationist IDealogues have demonstrated by their refusal to either defend or abandon discredited arguments that they are not open to convincing .

Ergo Plan B: "To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."

[Ike]

"They claim to be able to tell apart two different kinds of order: one that can be explained in terms of the operation of natural law, and one that can't. "

How do they explain "natural law" in the first place? Where do they say it comes from?

[Oztrich Boy]

ID'ers are the Democrats of Science.

Could be a tagline

[Clemenza]

Fair enough.

[KeepUSfree]

And if these things occured on a second or so worldwide, in the 6 BILLION years they earth has been around that means that this could have occurred 6,000,000 x 365 x 24 x 60 x 60 = 1,892,160,000,000,000 times so far (at a minimum)...so those "1 in a billion" odds don't look so bad when you do something 1 quadrillion times....

[Servant of the 9]

I cannot say that S&T News is any kind of friend for ID, nor that it ever would have been. I tried it out and found it resolutely opposed to the very notion of Theology having any dependability for any question whatsoever. The magazine appears designed to destroy whatever credibility theology might have ever had. It should really be named Science trumps Theology News.

You are missing the point completely.

Science is the study of what happens when God does not intervene.
Theology is the study of what happens when God does intervene.

Inteligent Design might be true, but it can never be Science. It is by definition Theology. Therefore is shold never be taught in Science Classes.

If people want to be honest and add Theology classes to public schools, that would be OK with me, but don't debase science.

So9

[Fester Chugabrew]

if these processes occured millions and millions of times

Infinite combinations of matter over an indefinite period of time can explain everything that exists. Shall we call this "science?"

[Rudder]

The problem is that scientists aren't typically the types that go into public relations and the media types who report on science seek controversy over accuracy. I've had some of my research reported on by the NY Daily News and Newsday...I didn't recognize my own work (I had been doing for two years.)

I opt for more and better Sci-Fi movies as a substitute for the MSM. (with tongue in cheek).

[RogueIsland]

I'm curious. If you deal every card in a deck of playing cards out in front of you, what are the odds of you dealing the exact sequence of cards you end up with? Funny thing, those probabilities.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

" The chances of at least 410 amino acids accidentally forming a chain to produce one protein molecule is 10123."

10123 is not a probability.

BTW, there is no reason at all to think that abiogenesis would work that way. The rules of chemistry are no random.

[Proud_texan]

"I opt for more and better Sci-Fi movies"

Allow me to be the first to sign on to that proposal!

And yes, the few times I've been involved in a story I haven't recognized it either. Scary.

[Right Wing Professor]

Each protein molecule requires a minimum of 410 amino acids. All formed in left handed spirals. (Protein molecules do not have right handed spirals for some unknown reason.)

Human myoglobin has 153 amino acids. Human cytochrome c has 104 amino acids. Hen egg lysozyme has 129 amino acids. Where do you dig up this rubbish?

[doc30]

All formed in left handed spirals. (Protein molecules do not have right handed spirals for some unknown reason.)

It's all based on the stereochemistry involved.

Simple chemistry dictates that amino acids can condense and that a chain containing 410 amino acids units will form via condensation quite readily. It's freshamn chemistry.

[VadeRetro]

The story has a hint for the ID crowd. The Big Bang made a prediction of something that 1) we hadn't seen or guessed before, and 2) came true.

So, IDers, tell us something we didn't know, based on your theory. Then go find it.

[catpuppy]

... should we let those who are uneducated and unqualified dictate the course of science?

Of course not. Those ignorant, unwashed masses of little people have no business doing anything other than what WE tell them to do.

I read your comment just as I was falling off yet another turnip truck so I may have misinterpreted what you wrote. But it seemed a bit elitist, don't you think?

[doc30]

Infinite combinations of matter over an indefinite period of time can explain everything that exists. Shall we call this "science?"

Believe it or not, there are scientific theories based on essentially that idea. Provided an infinite universe, there will be a region of space with the exact same arrangements of matter and energy as we have here. There is a statistical probability for this. A very low probability, but a finite one. But given an infinite universe, that makes that low probability a certainty. That means there are multiple Fester Chugabrew's and doc30's out there.