Posted on 12/04/2005 4:18:42 PM PST by wjersey
PHILADELPHIA-December 4, 2005 - By gradually adding hybrids to this city's vehicle fleet, James Muller knows he's helping to save the environment. What he doesn't know is whether switching to the more expensive "green" vehicles will ever save any taxpayer dollars.
The city just bought 20 new hybrid Ford Escapes to add to the six Toyota Priuses already in its 6,000-vehicle fleet. Muller, Philadelphia's fleet manager, said officials are doing it to improve air quality, but that the upfront costs definitely take a bigger hit on city coffers. "That's what we're finding with the initial cost ... it doesn't wash out," he said. "You're actually paying more money."
It's only been a year or two since many cities across the country started adding hybrids to their fleets, but officials say the initial costs can be tough to bear. And they simply don't know whether, over the long run, the vehicles will end up costing more, the same or less than those fueled by gasoline or diesel.
Officials in Ann Arbor, Mich., decided not to add hybrids to their fleet after determining the costs would outweigh the benefits. Ann Arbor has other types of alternate-fuel vehicles, but found that hybrids just weren't cost-effective, said David Konkle, the city's energy coordinator.
"Economic times have been very tough and we were facing the toughest budget year that I've seen in the 15-plus years that I've been here at the city," Konkle said.
He found that hybrids would cost the city about $8,000 more than other cars it would use and save $300 to $500 a year in gas. "That takes more than the life of the car to make that $8,000 difference up," he said.
Hybrid vehicles get better mileage than their regular gasoline-powered counterparts because the hybrid switches back and forth between an electric motor and a gasoline engine.
In New York, hybrids make sense because the city now requires the purchase of the cleanest vehicle available, said Mark Simon, director of alternative fuel programs.
Simon estimates that the city is spending $3,000 to $6,000 more per hybrid vehicle, and saving $400 to $500 a year in fuel.
"It was not our mandate to save money," he said. "They're expecting us to pay more for a cleaner tailpipe."
In Oregon, Dan Clem has purview over 3,000 vehicles – 123 of them hybrids – as fleet manager for the state's Department of Administration Services.
Whether the state saves money in the long run depends on a number of factors, including how prices change and how well the hybrids hold up, he said.
"If they don't last, then they won't pencil out," Clem said, adding that they appear to be holding up well so far. "It could all go bad if and when the battery packs go bad."
Manufacturers say prices are bound to come down as more are manufactured.
"It costs the city more money to put out recycling bins, but it is the proper thing to do," said Dan Bedore, spokesman for Ford, which makes about 20,000 hybrid Ford Escapes a year. "Eventually, as hybrids become more popular, the price has to come down."
Brian Wynne, president the Electric Drive Transportation Association, said his group is working to try to encourage fleets to go hybrid. While hybrids are a low-risk technology, he said, the price does cause some governments to think hard before buying them.
"Yes, there is a premium associated with buying a hybrid vehicle at this point," said Wynne, whose group's members include vehicle and equipment manufacturers, energy suppliers and others. "I don't think there's hesitancy, I think there's diligence."
He pointed to efforts to bring down the costs, including government incentives and tax credits and increasing the overall production of vehicles and parts.
Bradley Berman, editor of hybridcars.com, a consumer-information site, said fleet managers need to look at how much they typically drive a vehicle and how long they keep it.
"Obviously, the more you drive the more you save and the more compelling the financial equation is," Berman said. Cities such as Seattle and Pittsburgh have made the move to hybrid buses, a use that some say is perfect for a hybrid because of all the stop-and-go, heavy-duty driving.
Brett Smith, assistant director of manufacturing, engineering and technology for the Center for Automotive Research, in Ann Arbor, said it can take five to seven years to start saving on a car driven 12,000 miles a year.
"Certainly there are governments and communities that will make that commitment," he said.
In Garfield County, Colo., County Manager Ed Green said the fleet's 11 hybrid cars are meant to set an example for the community as a whole. But not all governments are in a position to be able to make that statement.
With the reality of layoffs facing Ann Arbor, Konkle said, the expense of hybrids was pretty much out of the question this year.
"Is this year a good year to demonstrate our greenness by buying a hybrid vehicle?" he said. "And the answer was, 'no."'
I was referring to the forests being chopped down in South America to plant corn.
I am gathering information and will add your opinions to the catalog.
One thing for sure is that we agree on decreasing our dependence on mid east (and Venezuelan) oil...double edge to that as well. Decreasing our dependence on them means decreasing our influence as well. I guess the principle should be following a balanced approach until technology improves to the point where we don't need oil.
No. The warranty goes out at 100,000 miles. We've had ours for 5 years, and we haven't had any problems. You don't have to change the oil like in a regular car. The transmission won't go out like in our last Dodge Caravan.
To top it off, it's very fun to drive. Before this, our favorite car to drive had been either our Mazda RX-7 or Toyota Celica. Now, the Prius has become the funnest car we've had to drive.
How are they ecologically unsound???
Price wise, it takes a while for the payback, but they are better for the environment than other cars.
My husband likes gadgets also, and he loves his Prius. We got ours 5 years ago, and we haven't been disappointed. We're trying to decide when to get our next one.
So far, 0$ in 5 years.
Actually, it's about $3,000 more for a comparably equipped conventional model. Hybrids aren't available in the "el-strippo" trim governments usually buy. Not to mention the inablility to get fleet pricing for them.
Hybrids do not save anyone any money. They consume less fuel and emit less exhaust. That's it. If you want to save money, get a diesel or gasoline fueled econobox.
Interestingly, there is a well-recognized phenomenon in the US, where equipment lifecycle costs are generally proportional to environmental impact.
As an example, cities loose money on recycling, because (with the exception of metals, like soda cans) recycling is an environmentally bad thing to do. It harms the ecology, in many ways.
Metals are an exception, because things like the Haber process are extroordinarily energy intensive - so recycling makes sense.
At the opposite extreme, recycling plastic requires vast amounts of energy, creates particularly nasty air pollution, and in general, costs more than the plastic did in the first place.
The only reason one would do it is because of some misguided, unfounded belief - tantamount to a dopey religious cult.
With all due respect.
I would agree from a strictly cost benefit analysis for a government it may not pay off. But for a private individual who values innovation and not the dread of filling up his gas tank, it psychologically is worth the extra initial outlay. It's the same as any other thing we purchase. We do it more often than not for the sole reason that we want something. Who does a cost benefit analysis to see if they buy anything? With governments that must be factored in. With an individual it not the be all and end all. I am not sorry that I have an Escape hybrid. If I break even at the time I trade it in, I will be satisfied. That's my bottom line. And every time I go to the gas station I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. That has an intangible value over and above a cost benefit analysis.
If you are doing it for noneconomic, and nonecological reasons, that is fine - compare it to a vacation in the carribean. Fun, but you are not exactly saving the planet. ;)
That's what I have said all along. I am no tree hugger. In fact I am a charter, dues paying member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy. I just liked the Escape Hybrid the first time I drove it. I didn't expect it to drive so well and the economy is a big bonus. I traded in my previous 2003 Escape, which I liked very much so I knew exactly what I was getting plus about a 75% increase in mileage. They've made a few improvements as well. It looks right neat next to my F-150. I view this as a win-win situation. It is just something I wanted to do. I'd still drill for oil everywhere and I detest the environmental wackos. I'm a little to the right of Atilla the Hun but I still like innovation and technology. That's my motivation.
The Hybrids I catch in Lake Richland Chambers don't seem to cost any more than any other non-Hybrid. I'm confused????
Tiger muskie?
Strippers. I'm in Texas.
Better to give money to the Japanese than the oli companies and the arabs.
If you compare prices on two similar cars, Prius and the Corolla. Prius cost $22K fully loaded, and the Corolla cost $18K with same options.
Prius rated at 60 mpg (which is what we get with ours), and Corolla at 30 mpg.
Based on gas costing $2.50/gallon, and based on going roughly 2000 miles per month, you would save roughly $1000 a year.
The break even point is in four years. We've had our Prius for about 5 years. If you drive more, then you break even faster. If the price of gas goes up, then you break even faster.
If you don't drive your car much, then it will take a long time for you to break even. Also, if you live in an area where gas is cheaper, it will take longer for you to break even.
Personally, I think the Prius handles much nicer than a Corolla. I think it should be compared to a Camry, and then the Prius definitely is cheaper than the Camry.
Forgot to point out that the trade-in value for a Prius is much higher than a Corolla. So in the long run, it really does save you money if you drive a lot.
There are a lot of mentally handicapped people who think Priuses are purchased to save money.
What a transparent straw man!
And some buy $250,000 Ferraris. How long will it take one of those to break even based on the price of gasoline??
People buy the Prius for reasons other than to save money on the price of gasoline.
Ya Think?!!?
Sounds like a design problem.
You mention that these are faster than the old buses on hills and the highway.
This would indicate that these buses are optimized for improved performance with the same horsepower and fuel economy. Specify a smaller engine next time, and performance will drop to the level of the old buses, but fuel economy will increase.
Some of the new hybrid SUVs are being designed that way on purpose- to get more performance for the same fuel usage.
If you spec an engine large enough to maintain highway speeds on steep grades, then you have too much engine to really get the best advantage of the hybrid system. In fact, due to the added weight of the hybrid system, the vehicles will most likely get worse mileage running up and down hills at highway speeds.
And you noted that the maintenance savings are $3 million per year. That buys a LOT of diesel.
I respectfully disagree. The batteries will eventually fail- no batttery system has an infinite number of charge/discharge cycles. And that works against the long-term cost effectiveness of Hybrids. Assuming the political/PR climate allows, my employer plans to trade or scrap ours before the battery packs have to be replaced.
I have experience with both.
The particulate filters are a maintenance nightmare.
Low sulfur diesel does reduce emissions, but it is more expensive. Also, the lubricity ('slipperyness') of ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) is poor, which can lead to component failure in the fuel injection system.
Strangely enough, adding 5% Biodiesel to ULSD further reduces emissions, restores the lubricity, and reduces petroleum consumption by 5%.
B5 (5% Biodiesel) performs well in winter compared to richer Biodiesel blends, which can "gel" at higher temperatures than regular diesel.
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